1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR December 21 & 22, 1999 25 168 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 MS. NANCY FAGGIANELLI 12 Carlton, Fields, Ward, Emmanuel, Smith & Cutler, P.A. 13 Attorneys at Law One Harbour Place 14 Tampa, Florida 33601 15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 19 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 20 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 21 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko Ms. Stacy Brooks 23 Mr. Jesse Prince Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Marty Rathbun Ms. Lara Cartwright 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (via Internet) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 169 1 I N D E X 2 Volume II 3 December 21, 1999 4 WITNESS PAGE 5 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag 6 Service Organization: 7 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG......... 171 9 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 344 10 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 345 11 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE.............. 346 12 13 14 EXHIBITS 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 1...................... 237 16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 2...................... 255 17 Defendant's Exhibit No. 3...................... 297 18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 4...................... 315 19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 5...................... 332 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 170 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 C O N F I D E N T I A L 13 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 14 deposition of ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, upon oral 15 examination in the above?styled cause, at the 16 instance of the Defendant Church of Scientology 17 Flag Service Organization, for the purposes of 18 discovery or use at trial or both, pursuant to 19 Florida Rules of Civil Procedure, proceedings 20 therefor were held before Susan D. Wasilewski, 21 Registered Professional Reporter, Certified 22 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the 23 State of Florida at large, at the Wyndham 24 Westshore, 4860 West Kennedy Boulevard, Tampa, 25 Florida, on December 21, 1999, at 9:10 a.m. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 171 1 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 2 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 3 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 4 had and taken: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 6 by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, having been previously duly sworn, 8 continued to testify as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Now, other than the library project with 12 Mr. Haney, did you do any other projects, work, for 13 Mr. Haney? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did anybody help you with regard to that 16 project, was that just all you? 17 A. Just me. 18 Q. Did you finish your work? 19 A. Well, I finished my part. If he wants to 20 do more, that's up to him. 21 Q. Well, I never asked you this but, you 22 know, briefly describe what the finished work 23 product was. 24 A. You did ask and I answered that, that I 25 had carried it to the point that I wanted to end SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 172 1 it. It was a point of ending and I gave it to him. 2 Q. But did you have everything cataloged by 3 then? 4 A. It was in a findable order. 5 Q. Was it in a chronological order? 6 A. No, it was just, you know, by categories 7 of things. 8 Q. Can you tell me some of the categories? 9 A. Oh, such as media, court cases and 1023s, 10 that sort of stuff. 11 Q. Well, how many documents, what's the 12 volume of the ?? of the documents in this library? 13 A. It's really hard to say because I was 14 putting them into binders and binders take up more 15 room than documents. 16 Q. Well, how many file ?? are they in file 17 cabinets? 18 A. No, just in binders. 19 Q. Sitting on shelves or what? 20 A. Well, shelves until I, you know, put some 21 into bankers boxes. 22 Q. How does one access them or what do you 23 do, is there some index or something? 24 A. No. I would just put tags on the outside, 25 you know, media. Like from somewhere just media SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 173 1 out of Europe, and I didn't even know what it said 2 because it would be in a foreign language, so I 3 would just put foreign language press together. 4 Q. How many bankers boxes? 5 A. Maybe 10. 6 Q. Were there any filing cabinets, too, or 7 was it just 10 bankers boxes? 8 A. No filing cabinets. 9 Q. So that's the full extent of the 10 documents, ten bankers boxes? 11 A. Roughly. 12 Q. And how many months did that take you to 13 do? 14 A. Well, again, I was not, as you were trying 15 to make it, as a full?time job. I was there for 16 about ?? doing this for about five, six months but 17 I was not, you know, like 9:00 to 5:00. 18 Q. So you basically just sort of rearranged 19 everything in a ?? and put it into some sort of 20 order that at least to you made sense? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have health insurance? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you on some sort of public assistance? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 174 1 Q. Do you know what I mean by that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How is it ?? are you paying for your 4 medical care? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is somebody helping you with regard to 7 that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Has Mr. Haney given you money with regard 10 to that? 11 A. No. I've answered that one before. 12 Q. I didn't ask you before whether Mr. Haney 13 was paying for your medical care, did I? 14 A. You asked me if Mr. Haney had given me any 15 other money for any other reasons. 16 Q. You know, the problem is that you are 17 so ?? try to be so precise as far as your answers. 18 The best example is Mr. and Mrs. Minton bought the 19 house ?? that I have to, as a result of that, ask 20 questions a number of times to ensure myself that 21 I'm actually getting an answer to. All right? 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. What is ?? what is the name of your 24 oncologist? 25 A. I consider that privileged. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 175 1 Q. So you're refusing to answer that 2 question? 3 A. That is true. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Are you instructing him not 5 to answer that question? 6 MR. DANDAR: He's refusing to answer. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm asking you are you 8 instructing him not to answer? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: And the basis of the 11 instruction is what? 12 MR. DANDAR: Privileged, privacy. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q. What is the name of the psychiatrist who 15 you saw for eight to ten sessions in 1999? 16 A. I would consider that privileged. 17 Q. You're refusing to answer that question? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Are you instructing him not 20 to answer that question? 21 MR. DANDAR: It's totally inappropriate 22 to ask an expert witness what doctors he's 23 seeing. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know what, Ken, 25 if somebody ?? if you're calling a witness to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 176 1 testify and trying to qualify him as an expert 2 and this year he's been undergoing psychiatric 3 analysis and treatment, it seems to me that 4 that's relevant and I should ?? and we should 5 be able to discover what the nature of that 6 treatment is and whether or not it's 7 something ?? whether or not he suffers from 8 some sort of mental imbalance that would 9 disqualify him as a witness, any kind of a 10 witness. 11 MR. DANDAR: He's asserting the 12 privilege, he won't answer the question. 13 MR. WEINBERG: And you're instructing him 14 not to answer the question, right? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Based on what? 17 MR. DANDAR: Privilege. 18 MR. WEINBERG: What privilege? 19 MR. DANDAR: Privacy. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q. Do you have your own computer? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is it portable, laptop? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did somebody buy that for you or give SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 177 1 that to you? 2 A. I have a little Mac that I've had for 3 years. 4 Q. And what do you do with your computer, 5 what do you use it for? 6 A. For ?? I guess I don't understand the 7 question. I mean I write on it. 8 Q. Well, did someone buy that computer for 9 you? 10 A. I bought it. 11 Q. While you were in Washington? 12 A. No, I bought that in San Diego six years 13 ago. 14 Q. So you use it for word processing? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you use it for any other purpose? 17 A. No, it's not got enough RAM. 18 Q. Do you use it ?? do you hook up to the 19 Internet with it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So you don't use it for e?mail purposes or 22 anything like that? 23 A. Not enough RAM. 24 Q. Do you have any e?mail or Internet 25 capability at this point? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 178 1 A. Do I? 2 Q. Yeah, do you have some computer somewhere 3 that ?? that you use to communicate with people on 4 the Internet? 5 A. Mostly libraries is what I've ?? what I've 6 used. 7 Q. And do you ?? how frequently do you go on 8 the Internet? 9 A. It's not a frequency ratio, whenever I 10 feel like it. 11 Q. When is the last time you communicated 12 with somebody on the Internet? 13 A. A few days ago. 14 Q. And who were you communicating with? 15 A. My son. 16 Q. When is the last time you communicated 17 with somebody connected with Scientology or your 18 Scientology work or cases on the Internet? 19 A. Last week. 20 Q. Who was that? 21 A. Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. Did you print out ?? do you have ?? did 23 you print out the message? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was it you to him or him to you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 179 1 A. I think it was me to him. 2 Q. With regard to setting up this deposition? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. DANDAR: Object. He's not allowed to 5 ask you any ?? never mind. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: Never mind. 8 Q. Prior to Mr. Dandar, have you 9 communicated on the Internet this year with 10 Mr. Prince? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Minton? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Stacy? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What other people connected with your ?? 17 you know, with an effort involving Scientology? 18 A. One attorney. 19 Q. Who is that? 20 A. I'm not going to disclose it since I've 21 not been named in the case. 22 Q. The reason you're not going to disclose it 23 is what? 24 A. Work product. 25 MR. DANDAR: Work product. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 180 1 Q. The name of the person? 2 A. Attorney work product. I'm not going 3 to ?? 4 MR. WEINBERG: You're instructing him not 5 to answer that question? 6 MR. DANDAR: He's not going to answer the 7 question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Just tell me, are you 9 instructing him not to answer the question? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q. So Stacy, Prince, some unidentified 13 attorney that you're asserting some privilege as 14 to ?? what other people that have to do with 15 Scientology? 16 A. Jesse and I haven't even discussed 17 Scientology. It's been hey bro, when will I see 18 you? I mean you shifted your question. Before, 19 you just said talking on the Internet. 20 Q. Well, tell me talking on the Internet. 21 Stacy, Prince, some unidentified lawyer. 22 A. My son. 23 Q. Your son. 24 A. My first wife. I think that's it. 25 Q. What about Dan Leipold? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 181 1 A. I'm going to decline that. 2 Q. You're going to decline it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the reason you're going to decline it 5 is what? 6 MR. DANDAR: Work product. 7 A. Work product. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Can he answer 9 and not you? Are you under oath, Ken? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm objecting. I'm the one 11 that objects. 12 MR. WEINBERG: No, you didn't object. 13 What you did was answer. 14 A. I answered the same time as he did, I 15 think. 16 Q. No, no, he ?? it's not for him to answer, 17 Mr. Young. It's for you to answer unless he would 18 like to go under oath and I can question him about 19 what he did on the Internet. 20 All right. Now the reason that you will 21 not answer whether or not you have communicated on 22 the Internet with Dan Leipold in 1999 is work 23 product? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. DANDAR: Objection; work product. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 182 1 Q. Okay. Now ?? 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's so preposterous that 3 it defies comprehension that you're objecting 4 to work product as to whether or not ?? I 5 didn't ask him what his communication was, as 6 to whether he had any communication on the 7 Internet. And that's a work product 8 objection? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it is. 10 MR. WEINBERG: You need to go and look at 11 the rule, Ken. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 Q. But I guess, in light of that objection, 14 that sort of tells us who this unidentified lawyer 15 is, right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection, work product. 17 Don't answer the question. 18 Q. All right. Who else? The unidentified 19 lawyer, Prince, Stacy, your family members, who 20 else have you talked to, communicated with on the 21 Internet this year? 22 A. With regard to Scientology, that's it? 23 Q. Well, we weren't going to limit it to 24 that, remember? 25 A. I don't think you have a right to intrude SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 183 1 into any personal correspondence I might have with 2 people. 3 Q. Well ?? well, you just said that, you 4 know, Jesse was just yo, man, brother or something 5 like that. You consider that had to do with 6 Scientology or not? 7 A. Well, Jesse is a prominent person in all 8 of this and you want to know about that. 9 Q. He's a prominent antiScientologist, right? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So that's it as far as people that have 12 worked against Scientology in the last year that 13 you've communicated with through the Internet? 14 A. I can't respond to that ?? that 15 characterization of that question. 16 Q. For some semantic reason? 17 A. Well, you're saying working against. 18 You're loading the question. If you want to reword 19 it I'll answer it. 20 Q. All right. Well, you've been working 21 against Scientology for what, seven years now? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You've been paid to testify against 24 Scientology for what, seven years now? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 184 1 Q. How many years? 2 A. I ?? the way you're loading your question, 3 if you want to reword it, I'll answer it 4 differently. 5 Q. You're just not able to answer that 6 question? 7 A. Not the way you load them. 8 Q. Now ?? 9 A. I can't respond to ?? 10 Q. You don't have a question now. Okay? You 11 need to ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Wait. 13 Q. You need to not talk when there is not a 14 question on the table. 15 MR. DANDAR: You don't need to give him 16 instruction. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes I do. 18 MR. DANDAR: Just ask the question. 19 MR. WEINBERG: If he wants to make 20 speeches, I will tell him to ?? to be quiet. 21 MR. DANDAR: You can object to his 22 speeches. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm doing. 24 MR. DANDAR: Don't instruct him. 25 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, yes, I am SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 185 1 going to instruct him. He has no right to ?? 2 he has no right to talk if there is not a 3 question pending. 4 MR. DANDAR: We'll just do that one more 5 time and then we leave. We'll adjourn. 6 THE WITNESS: I do have a right to 7 complete my thought, don't I? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Your thought was 9 completed. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm talking to my attorney, 11 sir. 12 MR. DANDAR: You didn't complete your 13 answer? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I was trying to 15 complete my answer. 16 MR. DANDAR: Then complete your answer. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no, no, no. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q. Before Mr. Haney gave you a car ?? 20 MR. DANDAR: Is there a phone here? 21 Q. ?? what car were you using, sir? 22 A. There wasn't a car that I was using. 23 MR. DANDAR: Give me Judge Moody's phone 24 number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Let's just go. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 186 1 Is that what you want? Is that what you want, 2 Ken? Because you go look at the last question 3 and you will see that he completed his answer 4 and now all you're doing is playing games. 5 Jsut stop. 6 MR. DANDAR: He said he didn't. 7 MR. WEINBERG: He did and I started 8 asking other questions. Just stop. Hang up 9 the phone and stop. 10 MR. DANDAR: You can keep asking 11 questions, go ahead. 12 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not, not with you 13 on the phone. This is what you did in probate 14 court the other day. Are you going to sit on 15 the phone? We either go off the record and 16 stop the deposition, which is fine, if that's 17 what you would like to do, but we're not doing 18 it on the phone. Is that what you want to do? 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Is that what you want to 21 do? 22 MR. DANDAR: I am now off the phone. I 23 have his phone number. Continue your 24 questioning, please. 25 MR. WEINBERG: There is a question and it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 187 1 is pending. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, then we'll have to 3 read it back, I guess, unless the witness 4 remembers it. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's kind of hard to 6 concentrate with you talking. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Before Mr. Haney gave you his car to 9 drive, which you're still driving, what car did you 10 use? 11 A. I answered that and it can be read back. 12 Q. Well, I couldn't hear it because 13 Mr. Dandar was talking. 14 A. I'm sorry. You were looking at me, I 15 thought you heard. 16 Q. How could I hear with him talking on the 17 phone? What's the answer? 18 A. The answer was I didn't have a car before 19 that. 20 Q. So how did you travel across country, what 21 did you travel in? 22 A. A rental car. 23 Q. And who rented it for you? 24 A. Mr. Haney. 25 Q. And I thought I had asked you before what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 188 1 Mr. Haney had provided for you. I don't remember 2 you telling me a rental car. 3 A. It's not provided for me. It's not 4 something I keep but a rental car for driving. 5 Q. Well, who ?? so this rental car was for 6 somebody else? 7 A. No, it was for me to take a trip, it 8 wasn't for me. 9 Q. All right. Well, when did Mr. Haney get 10 you the rental car? 11 A. When I went to Washington, D.C. 12 Q. This is before he gave you his own car? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what kind of rental car was it? 15 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 16 Q. So he made all the arrangements for you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How long did you drive that rental car? 19 A. A few weeks. 20 Q. So it wasn't just in Washington. You also 21 drove it in Columbus as well? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then he replaced that with another 24 rental car or with his car? 25 A. That was replaced with his ?? with the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 189 1 car ?? 2 Q. Okay. Now, prior to the rental car, when 3 you made your way from Washington to Columbus, what 4 did you use for transportation? 5 A. A rental car. 6 Q. That Mr. Haney got for you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So that was a second rental car? 9 A. I don't remember if it was second or the 10 same. 11 Q. Well, how many rental cars have you had 12 that Mr. Haney provided for you? 13 A. Two. 14 Q. So the first rental car was rented in 15 Washington? 16 A. No. In Columbus. 17 Q. How did it get to Washington? 18 A. I drove it. 19 Q. So it ?? you flew to Columbus, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. At Mr. Haney's expense? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who paid for your ?? your flight to 24 Columbus? 25 A. We've gone over this. I paid for my SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 190 1 flight. 2 Q. Where did that money come from? 3 A. We've gone over this. 4 Q. Well, I'm confused now. All right? Where 5 did that money come from? 6 A. I paid for that flight when I told you I 7 had dropped off Jesse, San Francisco, Columbus to 8 Well Spring. 9 Q. All right. But that money had come from 10 Mr. Minton, didn't it? 11 A. We've gone over this. No. You keep 12 trying to make this point. I keep saying no. 13 Q. That came from your own resources, is that 14 right? 15 A. For the third time, yes. 16 Q. Now ?? so then Mr. Haney rented a car in 17 Columbus and you ?? then you drove it back to 18 Washington? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Picked up the dog and drove back to 21 Columbus? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Well, what did you do with it in 24 Washington then? 25 A. I picked up the cat. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 191 1 Q. You already had the dog? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So the dog flew with you on the airplane? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So you and the dog drove to 6 Washington and you picked up the cat and drove back 7 to Columbus, is that right, is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How long did that ?? how long did all that 10 process take? 11 A. Which process? 12 Q. Going from Columbus to Seattle to pick up 13 the cat and back to Columbus. 14 A. Including staying in Seattle? 15 Q. Yeah, I want to know how long you had the 16 car that Mr. Haney rented for you in Columbus? 17 A. A few weeks. 18 Q. Okay. Then you got back to Columbus and 19 did you give up the rental car? 20 A. At some point, yes. 21 Q. And then at that point, what, Mr. Haney 22 was transporting you from place to place? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How did you get from place to place? 25 A. For a while I was just there without a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 192 1 car. I didn't need to go place to place. 2 Q. He paid for cabs or anything like that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So then you rented a second car and drove 5 to Washington? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And back, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Drove that for a period of time and 10 ultimately he replaced that with his own car, is 11 that right? 12 A. We just keep covering the same ground, 13 don't we? 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Well, I mean if you would have told me 17 something about these rental cars below ?? before, 18 then we wouldn't be covering this ground. You 19 didn't ?? you didn't mention them before. 20 A. No, you keep asking me the same cars for 21 the second or third time. 22 Q. All right. Is there anything else that 23 Mr. Minton ?? I'm sorry. 24 MR. DANDAR: Excuse me? 25 Q. Is there anything else that Mr. Haney SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 193 1 provided for you other than the room, $200 a week, 2 the two rental cars, his own car, anything else 3 that we didn't go over before? 4 A. You forgot the computer. 5 Q. And the computer. Anything else? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did Mr. Haney, in the period of time that 8 you were with him, pay for any of your medical 9 expenses, including the heart attack? 10 A. No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: That's ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, don't do that. 13 Q. Now, in nineteen ?? in the fall of 1995, 14 where were you living? 15 A. Probably west Seattle. 16 Q. Well, in particular, in November and 17 December 1995, where were you living? 18 A. Probably west Seattle. 19 Q. Well, do you remember actually where you 20 were living? 21 A. It's my best guess right now. 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you were doing 23 in November and December of 1995? 24 A. That might have been when I was working on 25 the FACT Net case. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 194 1 Q. Working with whom on the FACT Net case? 2 A. Fagrid Benson in Denver. 3 Q. Who was the lawyer? 4 A. I don't remember which ?? I don't remember 5 his name. 6 Q. Tom Kelly? 7 A. Yeah, I think it's Tom Kelly, yeah. 8 Q. But you don't remember if that's what you 9 were doing? 10 A. It seems approximate what I might have 11 been doing. 12 Q. And was your wife living with you at that 13 time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember precisely what she was 16 doing at that point in time? 17 A. Taking care of cats. 18 Q. Now, you never met Lisa McPherson, did 19 you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You didn't know her, did you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You never talked to her, did you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You were not in Clearwater, Florida in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 195 1 November or December of 1995, were you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You were not with her at any time in the 4 Fort Harrison Hotel, is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You never visited her at her job at AM ?? 7 AMC Publishing in Clearwater, did you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You were not her friend, were you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You never ?? you've never spoken to any of 12 her fellow workers at AMC Publishing, have you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And you have no personal knowledge as to 15 what happened with regard to Lisa McPherson in 16 November or December of 1995, do you, sir? 17 A. You mean in the sense of percipient 18 empirical? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No. 21 Q. When was the last time that you were in 22 Clearwater? 23 A. I can't give you a year but if more than 24 ten years ago will suffice for you. 25 Q. How many times have you ever been in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 196 1 Clearwater? 2 A. Oh, gee, I don't know, several times when 3 I used to make trips there. Even ?? 4 Q. You were never on staff at Flag, were you? 5 A. No. I even met Mr. Rinder there one time. 6 Q. So the last time that you were in 7 Clearwater was sometime while you were still in the 8 Church of Scientology? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you ever meet Fannie McPherson? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you ever talk to Fannie McPherson? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever met any family member of 15 Lisa McPherson? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know Janis Johnson? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know Alain Kartuzinski? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You have no idea where David Miscavige was 22 in November or December of 1995, do you? 23 A. Percipient knowledge, no. 24 Q. When you say percipient knowledge, because 25 that's a term that a lot of people don't know, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 197 1 you're talking about actual knowledge, is that what 2 you're talking about? 3 A. As in see, speak on the phone, direct 4 knowledge, as opposed to I got a real good chance 5 of guessing that Clinton is in Washington right 6 now, that type of speculative knowledge. 7 Q. Right. Right. Now, when were you first 8 hired in this case? 9 A. Three years ago, three and a half years 10 ago, somewhere in that vicinity. 11 Q. What month and year? 12 A. I don't recall. It's been, you know, a 13 few years ago. 14 Q. You didn't do anything to refresh your 15 recollection as to when you were hired, sir? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Well, what would you need to see to 18 refresh your recollection as to when it was that 19 you were first hired in this case? 20 A. To refresh my memory, I'd probably ask 21 Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. Well, is there some document that would 23 indicate when you were first hired? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you sign some agreement? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 198 1 A. I don't have anything like that, no. 2 Q. I didn't ask you whether you had it. I 3 asked you whether you had signed it. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you receive any correspondence from 6 Mr. Dandar? 7 A. I don't recall any. 8 Q. Never? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you and your wife receive any 11 correspondence from Mr. Dandar with regard to your 12 and/or her participation in this case? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you ever sign any documents or 15 agreements with regard to your participation in 16 this case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. As far as you know, did Stacy? 19 A. As far as I know, she didn't. 20 Q. Who contacted you to work on this case? 21 A. Mr. Dandar. 22 Q. And how did he contact you? 23 A. By telephone. 24 Q. Where? 25 A. Who? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 199 1 Q. Where were you when he contacted you? 2 A. In west Seattle. 3 Q. Were you in Bob Minton's house at that 4 point? 5 A. Mr. and Mrs. Minton's house? No. 6 Q. You were in some other house at that 7 point? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know how it came to be that 10 Mr. Dandar gave you a call? 11 A. I don't recall. He just found us and 12 called up and introduced himself and said he would, 13 you know, like to talk, talk to us. 14 Q. As a witness? 15 A. Well, he said he wanted to talk. I'm just 16 saying the first conversation. 17 Q. But in that first conversation he didn't 18 say he wanted to pay you anything? 19 A. No. 20 Q. He just wanted to talk to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted to talk to 23 you about? 24 A. Well, he identified himself as an attorney 25 on a case. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 200 1 Q. Did he say what case? 2 A. The McPherson case. 3 Q. Did you know anything about that case? 4 A. I had heard about it but I wasn't 5 following it that closely. 6 Q. How had you heard about it? 7 A. Probably back in the Internet somewhere 8 back then. 9 Q. But you don't remember precisely how you 10 had heard about it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Or from whom you had heard about it? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did he tell you in particular what he 15 wanted to talk to you about, what issues? 16 A. No. You've got mail? 17 Q. How long was that first conversation? 18 A. Oh, maybe ten minutes. 19 Q. Was Stacy part of the conversation? 20 A. I don't think she was. I don't recall her 21 being part of the conversation, the first one. 22 Q. Did he say he wanted to talk to you and 23 Stacy or just you? 24 A. I don't recall that, that part. 25 Q. Were there other conversations, other SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 201 1 telephone calls with Mr. Dandar at that point? 2 A. When you say at that point, I'm not sure 3 what you mean. 4 Q. Well, following this first telephone 5 conversation, were there other communications with 6 him? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, what is your best estimate of when 9 this was? We're in December of 1999 now. 10 A. Three and a half years ago. As I said, my 11 best way would be to ask Mr. Dandar. 12 Q. Well, tell me about the next conversation 13 that you remember you had with Mr. Dandar after the 14 first one. 15 A. Well, he came ?? he flew up to see us and 16 met with us. 17 Q. He flew to Seattle? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Was anybody with him? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he send anything before he came? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did he send you a copy of the complaint? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did he send you a copy of any proposed SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 202 1 amendments to the complaint? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Excuse me? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did he send you any records that ?? from 6 the case? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did he give you any discovery from the 9 case? 10 A. No. 11 Q. When he came to Seattle, did he show you a 12 copy of the complaint? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did he review with you any documents from 15 the case? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he review with you any proposed 18 amendments to the complaint? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When I say you ?? 21 A. Can I just walk, give me about a 22 two?minute walk? 23 Q. Sure. Can I finish this one thought? 24 When I say you, I'm referring to your knowledge 25 about you and Stacy as it relates to documents that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 203 1 you saw or tasks that you were asked. 2 A. Well, the meeting was with her and me and 3 him and so that was a collective ?? collective 4 answer. 5 Q. Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a two?minute 7 break. 8 THE WITNESS: Sure. I just need to walk 9 just a few minutes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: We'll take five minutes. 11 (Recess from 1:47 to 1:55 p.m.) 12 THE WITNESS: I have a question for him. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. During the break, did you speak with Jesse 16 Prince? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Did you speak with Jesse Prince about the 19 deposition? 20 A. Well, he just said how you doing, you 21 know, physically, how are you holding up? 22 Q. Well, he gave you some advice, didn't he? 23 A. He said listen, if you just need to take a 24 break, take a break. I said I'm doing fine. 25 Q. Didn't he say ?? didn't he say something SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 204 1 more than that to you? Did he talk about any of 2 your answers with you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, did Mr. Dandar, in this telephone 5 conversation that you had prior to going to 6 Seattle, did he speak with you about the prospect 7 of adding David Miscavige as a party defendant to 8 this case? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you receive any communication from 11 Mr. Dandar before his visit to Seattle with regard 12 to potentially adding David Miscavige as a party 13 defendant to the case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. As far as you know, did Stacy have any 16 such communication or correspondence from 17 Mr. Dandar with regard to adding David Miscavige to 18 the ?? to the case as a party defendant? 19 A. As far as I know, no. 20 Q. Had anybody else communicated with you 21 other than Mr. Dandar with regard to the Lisa 22 McPherson case? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Any other potential witness or person, I'm 25 talking about in that time frame, whenever it was, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 205 1 three and a half years ago? 2 A. No. 3 MR. DANDAR: Let me interrupt you for a 4 minute. I'm letting you ask him questions 5 about any of our conversations or 6 correspondence until the time where he's 7 retained as an expert, then I'm going to stop 8 and object. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object all you want to. I 10 mean at some point you're offering him and, 11 you know, there is ?? there is a wide range of 12 questions that I ?? that I should be able to 13 ask and I will, and if you instruct him not to 14 answer, instruct him not to answer. 15 MR. DANDAR: I will. I just wanted to 16 let you know. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. Now, do you remember receiving ?? ever 19 receiving any written correspondence or 20 communication from Ken Dandar, ever? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was that? 23 A. It was a cover letter with some documents 24 that he had sent me to look at. 25 Q. When was that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 206 1 A. Oh, maybe a month or so after the Seattle 2 meeting or when he decided to take us on. 3 Q. Are you sure it wasn't a month or so 4 before the Seattle meeting? 5 A. I'm sure. 6 Q. Did you ever see a copy, back three years 7 or so ago when you first got involved, did you ever 8 see a copy of a proposed amended complaint? Did 9 you ever see one? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you ever see a copy of a proposed 12 amendment that would add David Miscavige as a party 13 defendant to the case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. As far as you know, did ?? I'm talking 16 about back when you and Stacy were in Washington, 17 whenever that was, back in that time period you're 18 talking about, as far as you know, did Stacy? 19 A. As far as I know, no. 20 Q. What was the nature of the documents that 21 you got? 22 A. They were Exhibits that had been filed in 23 the case and had Bates stamps in the corner. They 24 were dealing with her stay at the Fort Harrison, 25 you know. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 207 1 Q. They were discovery, in other words? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And in addition to discovery that had 4 Bates stamps on it, were there any other category 5 of documents that you got? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You never got a copy of the complaint 8 itself? 9 A. I ?? I believe he sent me a copy of the 10 amended complaint with a stamp after it had been 11 filed and said here, this has been filed. 12 Q. But that was an amended complaint that 13 didn't have David Miscavige as a defendant, 14 correct? 15 A. I don't recall it. Your question to me 16 was did I see a proposed one. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. He just said, you know, you might want 19 to ?? I'm sending you this. Okay. 20 Q. Well, did you work on a proposed amended 21 complaint? Was that part of your assignment? 22 A. No, I did not. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar called you up and said he 24 wanted to talk to you, and as a result flew to 25 Seattle, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 208 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And he ?? and he met with both you and 3 Stacy, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Together? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In your home or was it somewhere else? 8 A. I think we just met in a restaurant. I 9 don't know if he dropped by the house but the 10 conversation was in a restaurant. 11 Q. How long was your meeting, approximately? 12 A. A couple of hours. 13 Q. Did he show you any documents at the 14 meeting? 15 A. I don't recall that he did. 16 Q. Did you take notes at the meeting? 17 A. I don't recall that he did. 18 Q. Did you bring any documents to the 19 meeting? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What did he say that he wanted from you? 22 A. He wanted to see whether or not we had any 23 knowledge that could be used to help him ?? these 24 are my words, now ?? decipher or translate and 25 understand certain documents and the vocabulary. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 209 1 And I said I was familiar with the vocabulary, you 2 know, I could understand some things in documents, 3 yeah. Let's talk and we want to just find out what 4 we knew. 5 Q. And at that point, he hadn't shown you any 6 documents? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And did he describe the nature of the 9 documents? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, other than wanting you to help him 12 understand some vocabulary, what else did he say 13 that he wanted from you and/or Stacy? 14 A. Nothing else really. He just wanted to 15 understand, because of the complexity of the 16 organization, how things sort of fit together. 17 And, you know, I've got a thing here that's 18 arrowed, you know, there is something with an arrow 19 and it says this. What is this, you know, and I 20 said, well ?? the way he was describing it he said 21 it sounds like a dispatch, you know. 22 Q. So he wanted a history lesson, basically? 23 A. No, I wouldn't characterize it as a 24 history lesson as much as sort of a guided tour of 25 the terrain to understand since he did not have SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 210 1 that much familiarity with the vocabulary and the 2 system. 3 Q. Well, other than sort of a general 4 education with regard to the system and the 5 vocabulary, was there anything else in particular 6 that Mr. Dandar said that he wanted from you and/or 7 Stacy? 8 A. He talked about her physical condition and 9 possible ways that she was being treated. I said 10 I'm not a technical person, I can't respond to 11 that. And Stacy said she could, if there were 12 documents pertaining to that she might be able to 13 translate it. 14 Q. All right. But you told Mr. Dandar that 15 you had no percipient or actual knowledge of what 16 had gone on in Clearwater in December of 1995, 17 right, you established that with him? 18 A. I don't think I said it. I think it was 19 just understood. 20 Q. It was obvious to him? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Right? Did you show him any documents 23 while he was out there? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you tell him that you had done a dozen SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 211 1 or so declarations in the last few years with 2 regard to Scientology and various cases? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ?? did you suggest to him that he 5 might read those for a history lesson? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you remember anything else he asked you 8 to do for him, you or Stacy to do for him? 9 A. I'm sorry, I lost the question. Can you 10 ask it again? 11 Q. She'll read it to you. 12 (The question was read by the reporter.) 13 A. No, there was nothing at that time. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Let the record reflect that 15 Mr. Young's exwife, Stacy, has just entered 16 the room and is sitting next to Mr. Prince. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q. How many days did he stay in Seattle? 19 A. I just ?? we just met with him for just a 20 couple of hours. I don't know if he stayed on. He 21 said he was going to go back but that's all he 22 stayed with us was just a couple of hours. He may 23 have stayed overnight due to the hour and flights. 24 I can't say. 25 Q. Did he meet with anybody else out there? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 212 1 Did he tell you he was going to meet with anybody 2 else out there? 3 A. Didn't tell us that, no. 4 Q. Did you give him any numbers of other 5 people that he might contact? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you talk about Jerry Armstrong? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you talk about Jesse Prince? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you talk about any other person that 12 had been working against Scientology? 13 A. I would object to your characterization of 14 it. 15 Q. But no other name that you or Stacy 16 provided to him that he might contact to give him 17 assistance? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did he ask you about any people? 20 A. Not really. It was ?? it was mainly a, 21 you know, a get?together meeting, and we said we 22 would take a look and talk later and once we see 23 some documents and decide what to do next. It was 24 no way to really get that much of a precision 25 because we didn't know about the case, we hadn't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 213 1 seen a complaint, we hadn't seen his documents of 2 discovery. So it was more a case of him asking us 3 questions as to our familiarity and our background 4 in Scientology. 5 Q. Did he ?? did he pay you for the visit? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did he give you any money at the visit? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you meet with him the next day? 10 A. No. I don't think so. I think that was 11 just the only one that he flew out the next day. 12 Q. Did you sign any documents while he was 13 out there? 14 A. No. 15 Q. At that point in time, had you signed any 16 documents with regard to Mr. Dandar? 17 A. No. We've talked about that one earlier. 18 No. 19 Q. And at that point in time, it is your 20 testimony that you hadn't received anything from 21 Mr. Dandar, is that right? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Is there a particular event that you can 24 look to in your life to date when this meeting took 25 place? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 214 1 A. No, not really. 2 Q. What were you doing at the time as far as 3 earning a living? 4 A. I said ?? as I said, I think I might have 5 been doing some FACT Net work at that time. 6 Q. What was Stacy doing at the time? 7 A. Taking care of cats. 8 Q. When was the next time you had any 9 communication with Mr. Dandar following the 10 two?hour or so visit in Seattle? 11 A. I think when he ?? I think he called up 12 and said okay, I'm going to be sending you some 13 documents later on. 14 Q. You think or is that your best recall? 15 A. That's my best recollection. 16 Q. And was it ?? was it a substantive 17 conversation? 18 A. No, not really, because we wanted to see 19 the discovery documents. That was ?? we understood 20 to be our primary role, was to serve as translaters 21 for this stuff and give him some direction as to 22 what these things meant since Scientology has its 23 own vocabulary. 24 Q. So what was the volume of what he sent 25 you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 215 1 A. The best that I can recall, the first 2 batch was relatively light, you know, in the area 3 of 50 pages or something like that, just to get an 4 idea of what we were talking about. 5 Q. How many batches did you get? 6 A. Just that one batch. 7 Q. You said the first batch. 8 A. Well, yeah. Later on there was a box of 9 maybe 1,000 pages. 10 Q. So you got two separate batches then, the 11 first batch and then a box? 12 A. Yeah, I think so, yeah. 13 Q. And ?? 14 A. And there was also, you know, as I said, 15 here's a copy of the complaint. But as far as 16 discovery documents, that's ?? 17 Q. What about depositions, did he send you 18 depositions? 19 A. You know, I don't remember. I was more 20 interested in the discovery documents. I don't 21 remember. If it did, it didn't impress me or 22 didn't mean much. 23 Q. Well, the second box or the box after the 24 first batch, that was also discovery documents? 25 A. Yeah, those were all Bates stamped in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 216 1 sequence, pretty much in sequence, yeah. 2 Q. Where are those documents now? 3 A. Those were destroyed. 4 Q. By whom? 5 A. By me. 6 Q. With a shredder or what? 7 A. No, just securely dumped somewhere when I 8 wanted to clean out my files a couple years ago. 9 Q. So out in Washington? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you offer them to your ex?wife? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you offer to send them back to 14 Mr. Dandar? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Had you marked on them? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What was the reason that you destroyed 19 them? 20 A. Hadn't done any work on the case for a 21 while and I knew ?? we had already provided 22 information to him and ?? 23 Q. To him? 24 A. Mr. Dandar. Translated some pieces, so I 25 thought their usefulness was pretty much done. I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 217 1 don't like that sort of stuff just sitting around. 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. It takes up huge amounts of file space, 4 gets lost, you know. There is organizations that 5 have been known to burglarize places, that sort of 6 stuff. 7 Q. Did you ask Mr. Dandar if that was it as 8 far as the work that you were going to do for him? 9 A. No. It just ?? it was quiet and I didn't 10 ask any more. 11 Q. This first conversation that you had with 12 you and your wife at the time you had with 13 Mr. Dandar, did you discuss with ?? did he ask you 14 about what Mr. Miscavige would or would not have 15 known with regard to a type three situation? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you discuss Mr. Miscavige at all? 18 A. I don't recall discussing him, no. 19 Q. Now, when this next ?? when this first 20 batch came to you, about how long after the ?? 21 Mr. Dandar's visit did the documents come? How did 22 they come, by the way? 23 A. What? 24 Q. Federal Express or something like that? 25 A. Yeah, just in a box. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 218 1 Q. And how long after ?? approximately how 2 long after the visit in Seattle did the documents 3 come? 4 A. Well, I told you that as far as the 5 envelope, a week or so afterwards when the first 6 batch came. 7 Q. Okay. And was there any communication, 8 any letter? 9 A. There might have been a cover note saying 10 here's, you know, here's some documents for you to 11 review. 12 Q. But nothing substantive? 13 A. No, just a letter of transmittal, 14 basically. 15 Q. No work orders or anything like that? 16 A. No. No. 17 Q. No agreements to sign? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you read the documents? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did your wife at the time read the 22 documents? 23 A. I think she did. 24 Q. Did y'all discuss the documents? 25 A. We might have. He promised more, so it SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 219 1 was a matter of just, okay, we sort of get an idea, 2 so we'll wait until all the rest of them arrive and 3 just hold judgment. 4 Q. So these two batches came fairly close to 5 one another? 6 A. No, not really, they came several weeks 7 apart. 8 Q. I consider that fairly close. I mean so 9 you waited until you got the second batch before 10 you really had any communication about it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many visits did Mr. Dandar make to 13 Seattle? 14 A. I think there was one other visit. 15 Q. And who was with him on that visit? 16 A. Just him. 17 Q. How long after the first visit was the 18 second visit? 19 A. Oh, boy. Maybe six months. 20 Q. What was the occasion of the second visit? 21 A. Well, we had been talking on the phone and 22 he said he would just like to be able to sit down 23 and just talk about this for a couple of hours 24 rather than doing this on the phone. And maybe 25 because he was still having trouble when I would SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 220 1 refer to a particular document, and he would look 2 at it and maybe we could sit down and really 3 understand the document and look at it and just 4 give him sort of a hands?on briefing on how this 5 works. And we could save a lot of time just doing 6 it in person. 7 Q. And did that meeting take place? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In your house or at some restaurant or 10 what? 11 A. It was at a restaurant. 12 Q. Was this before or after the Mintons had 13 bought the house for you and your wife at the time? 14 A. The Mintons did not buy the house for me 15 and my wife at the time. That's not the 16 characterization I ever gave. 17 Q. So they bought it for the cats, is that 18 who they bought the house for? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And you just ?? you and your 21 wife at the time, Stacy, just happened to have the 22 privilege of living in the house, right? 23 A. We were taking care of the cats. 24 Q. Okay. Now, when Mr. and ?? when the 25 Mintons bought this house for the cats and you and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 221 1 your wife Stacy, was that before or after the 2 second visit by Mr. Dandar? 3 A. After. 4 Q. So when Mr. Dandar came the second time, 5 it was still prior to October of 1997, is that 6 right? 7 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 8 Q. Do you remember that the cat house was 9 bought in October of 1997 by the Mintons? 10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by the cat 11 house. 12 Q. Well, the house for the cats that you and 13 your wife, Stacy, were privileged enough to live 14 in, right? 15 A. I appreciate your sarcasm. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. What's your question? 18 Q. Well, my question was, was this ?? was 19 this trip by Mr. Dandar before or after you and the 20 cats were in that house? 21 A. As I said, to the best of my recollection, 22 it was before. 23 Q. Was this trip by Mr. Dandar, the second 24 trip by Mr. Dandar, was it before or after you 25 had ?? you and Stacy had had any communication with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 222 1 Bob Minton? 2 A. Before. 3 Q. And you believe that this second visit was 4 six months after the first visit? 5 A. Yeah, that seems about right. 6 Q. Do you know when the McPherson lawsuit was 7 filed? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, when Mr. Dandar came for this second 10 visit, how long did the meeting at the restaurant 11 take place? 12 A. Just a few hours. 13 Q. Who was at the meeting? 14 A. Stacy, Mr. Dandar and myself. 15 Q. Did Mr. Dandar take notes at either of 16 these meetings? 17 A. I don't remember if he did. We were ?? we 18 had a couple of documents, I remember that, but I 19 don't remember if he took notes. 20 Q. Did he show you any documents? 21 A. No. 22 Q. At the first meeting, he didn't show you 23 any documents, right? 24 A. No. 25 Q. At the second meeting, did he show you any SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 223 1 documents? 2 A. I don't recall that he did. 3 Q. But you said he had some documents? 4 A. No, we had documents we showed him. 5 Q. I'm sorry. Y'all had documents. Did you 6 go over documents at the first meeting? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you go over documents with Mr. Dandar 9 at the second meeting? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What documents did you go over with him at 12 the second meeting? 13 A. Oh, to the best of my recall, it would be 14 like an invoice, which would have ?? this is just 15 like a hypothetical. It just would have I?N?T?R?D, 16 and we said, well, it looks like that's the INT 17 rundown and that would be the abbreviation for INT 18 rundown. Oh, because these regents, when they 19 would write on an invoice, they would scrawl the 20 thing real fast. Oh, I get it. 21 So it would be taking through and noticing 22 the shorthand, other notes where we would just say 23 oh, and here, by the way, this is, you know, this 24 and that. Just little things that we knew that 25 would be ?? that you would have to be a staff SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 224 1 member to be able to decipher or translate. 2 Q. Do you remember any particular document 3 that you went over with Mr. Dandar at this second 4 meeting, you and/or your wife at the time? 5 A. Yeah. I ?? I don't know if I went over it 6 then or if we just talked later but I remember one 7 where there was an invoice for her that she was 8 red?tagged, and we saw that and we went oh oh, 9 because red tag is a serious sign that a person is 10 in trouble. So she was paying for something that 11 she was in trouble. I told Ken, I said we have an 12 invoice here for a person that is sick, in trouble, 13 et cetera. And again, only if you know what red 14 tag means in Scientology, that she was having to 15 pay for a red tag, I think something like a red tag 16 session. If you didn't know what that means, you 17 can think R?E?D was an abbreviation and ?? no, red 18 tag session. 19 So we said we think this is important and 20 if you get ?? so if you get PC folders for this 21 date, you can see what the red tag session is. And 22 this was to help him, to guide him as to what to 23 look for. 24 Q. You were made aware of the fact by 25 Mr. Dandar that Lisa McPherson was a public as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 225 1 opposed to a staff member at the time of her death, 2 he told you that? 3 A. I remember ?? I don't remember him telling 4 me that but it was obvious from the records. 5 Q. That she was? 6 A. That she was a paying public at the Fort 7 Harrison. 8 Q. Now, did Mr. Dandar stay over on this 9 second visit? 10 A. He might have but I don't know. 11 Q. Did he see anybody else at the time of 12 this second visit? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Did you meet with anybody ?? you or Stacy 15 meet with anybody else during this second visit 16 with regard to the case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Between the first and second ?? well, 19 strike that. 20 Prior to meeting with ?? talking to 21 Mr. Dandar for the first time, had anybody 22 communicated with you with regard to the death of 23 Lisa McPherson? 24 A. I don't recall anybody talking to me about 25 it, no. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 226 1 Q. And that would apply to Stacy as well, 2 right? 3 A. Other than maybe we said, you know, hey, 4 did you see that? Yeah. 5 Q. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm 6 talking about being interviewed or meeting with 7 somebody. 8 A. No. 9 Q. And I apologize if I asked you this but 10 I ?? but I may well have and if I did, you'll just 11 have to bear with me. At the second meeting, I 12 take it you didn't sign any ?? you and Stacy did 13 not sign any agreements, is that right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Were you given any directions during this 16 second meeting, you or Stacy, any requests? 17 A. No, just other than, you know, if I need 18 some more help on this I'll get with you. 19 Q. Were you paid for your time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. For the second meeting? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you submit a bill for your time for 24 the second meeting? 25 A. I don't know if I did or she did or if I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 227 1 just told him, I don't remember. 2 Q. Excuse me? 3 A. I don't remember how the billing was 4 actually done. 5 Q. Well, did there come a point in time when 6 you were paid, you and Stacy were paid by 7 Mr. Dandar? 8 A. That's a statement. Do you have a 9 question? 10 Q. That's a question. 11 A. Oh, it was? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Oh, sorry. Yes. 14 Q. When was that? 15 A. Oh, couple of months later. 16 Q. So that would put us about when in time? 17 A. Oh, maybe five, six months after the first 18 meeting, about three years ago now. 19 Q. Well, how long after ?? was this before or 20 after the Mintons bought the house that you got 21 paid? 22 A. I don't remember. I think it was before. 23 I don't remember. I think it was before. It was 24 just trying to get ?? I've got no event to really 25 nail it to. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 228 1 Q. Well, I mean a big event in your life was 2 moving into a $250,000 house bought by the Mintons, 3 correct? That was a big event, wasn't it? 4 A. Well, that's a change in one's life. 5 Q. I mean there was property, correct, 6 grounds? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. How many acres? 9 A. A couple of acres. 10 Q. What was the ?? and what you were living 11 on before you didn't own, right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You didn't have a couple of acres before, 14 did you? 15 A. No, we didn't own this one. 16 Q. How many square feet did this $250,000 17 house have? 18 A. I don't ?? don't ask me that. I've never 19 figured out square footage. 20 Q. Well, how many bedrooms did it have? Will 21 you describe the house for us? 22 A. It was a one bedroom. 23 Q. A $250,000 one bedroom house? 24 A. It was a one bedroom. 25 Q. Well, describe the house for us. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 229 1 A. There was a basement because the land 2 sloped away, which was basically unfinished and 3 that's where the sanctuary was to be primarily put 4 in. The first floor had a kitchen that opened 5 directly onto a dining area that opened directly 6 onto the living room. Off in the hall in the back 7 was a laundry room, and then there was a small room 8 which I had converted into an office. Then you go 9 up the stairs and there was an open loft bedroom 10 with a bath. Oh, and there was also a bath 11 downstairs and that was the entire thing. 12 Q. Was there any other structures on the 13 property? 14 A. There was a small building that was used 15 for storage of hay, like a ?? they call it a tack 16 room, which is, you know, about 9 x 12 that some 17 hay was stored in for the people that had some 18 horses before. 19 Q. Was the house furnished? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did Mr. Minton furnish it for you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did the Mintons furnish it for you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did they give you the money to furnish the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 230 1 house? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Where did you get the money? 4 A. We had our own furniture. 5 Q. So you moved your furniture from the 6 rental house to there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What about washer and dryer, what did you 9 do about that? 10 A. It came with a washer and dryer. 11 Q. So the house had a washer and dryer? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What else did the house have? What other 14 furnishings did the house have? 15 A. I don't consider washer and dryer to be 16 furnishings. There was a dishwasher. Do you 17 consider that to be furnishings? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Built?in dishwasher, garbage disposal, 20 electric lights, wall switches, a stair, I don't 21 know. I mean there is furniture ?? 22 Q. Central air conditioning and heating? 23 A. Yeah, if you consider that furnishings, 24 it's part of the house. 25 Q. How old was the house? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 231 1 A. I think about four or five years old. 2 Q. Now, these two visits that Mr. Dandar 3 made, it is your recollection they were made before 4 you ever heard of Bob Minton? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 6 Q. When did you first get paid by Mr. Dandar? 7 A. As I said, it was about maybe four or five 8 months after we started because it was a slow 9 beginning getting the discovery documents and I 10 didn't rush into it. Going through thousands of 11 pages took a while and so there was no particular 12 rush. 13 Q. Do you have a date? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you keep your time? 16 A. Roughly, as best as I could. 17 Q. Do you have a record of it somewhere? 18 A. Not now, no. 19 Q. Did Stacy keep that, I mean was she the 20 record keeper? 21 A. No, I was doing most of the review of the 22 documents and I would pull some out that I thought 23 would be relevant for her to see that would be more 24 technical. 25 Q. Did she keep her time as well? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 232 1 A. No. 2 Q. Well, what was the understanding as to how 3 you would get paid? 4 A. By the hour, but my attitude was if ?? the 5 hours that I would lose and just throw away were 6 just being basically generous rather than marking 7 down I did 15 minutes the way some attorneys do. I 8 didn't want to get into that. If I spent, you 9 know, most of the day, you know, okay, I spent, you 10 know, three, four hours. I would always give him 11 the benefit of the doubt in that way. 12 Q. Did you send an invoice? 13 A. Something was sent or by voice or mail. I 14 don't remember what it was but it was just for the 15 time spent, yes. 16 Q. Did you break out your time, like I spent 17 eight hours on reviewing documents? Did you break 18 that out? 19 A. I don't think so. I think it was just a 20 total time estimated. 21 Q. Was it for you and Stacy? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And how many ?? and how frequently did you 24 bill? 25 A. Just that one time. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 233 1 Q. You only billed him one time? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you get paid for the first and second 4 visits? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So in the last three and a half years, 7 you've only sent one bill to Mr. Dandar? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And as long as you were with Stacy, there 10 was only one bill sent to Mr. Dandar? 11 A. As best as I can recall, yes. 12 Q. Do you know whether Stacy has been billing 13 Mr. Dandar separately? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. What was the amount of the bill? 16 A. Just a couple of thousand dollars. 17 Q. And did you get paid? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And how much did you get paid ?? I mean in 20 what form did you get paid? 21 A. It was a check. 22 Q. From his law firm? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you deposited it, cashed it, deposited 25 it or what? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Which? 3 A. Deposited it. 4 Q. In these accounts that you talked about 5 before out in Seattle? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you remember when in period of time 8 you actually got paid? Was that the conclusion of 9 your work that you sent in the bill? 10 A. Well, in a way, yes. We chatted on the 11 phone a few times but I never considered it a ?? as 12 a billing matter at that time, you know. That 13 was ?? sitting down and reviewing documents 14 intensely is ?? I consider that to be the real 15 work. Just kicking around an idea or answering a 16 question for him on the phone or if he calls up and 17 said hey, I just found a document here that's got, 18 you know, to be ridiculous, SCN, what's that? Oh, 19 that's just one of the shorthands meaning 20 Scientology or something like that, just answer a 21 few questions. But those weren't ?? I didn't 22 consider that billable. 23 Q. Did you submit any reports to him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ?? did you review and revise SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 235 1 submissions? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you work on any amendments to the 4 complaint? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you talk to anybody else other than 7 Mr. Dandar with regard to your work, talking about 8 including your wife? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you talk to any witnesses? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you try to do any investigative work? 13 A. No. 14 Q. None whatsoever? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you go on the Internet and seek 17 assistance? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Are you sure? 20 A. Not that I recall. I may have ?? I think 21 one time I fed in one of the ?? one of the firms 22 into the search engine and, you know, turned up a 23 website and oh, that's interesting. I just wanted 24 to see if there was anything there, but I don't 25 think I even told him about that. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 236 1 Q. Did you ?? did you have a particular 2 handle or name on the Internet? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you use your own name when you go on 5 the Internet? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Always? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. What about Stacy? 10 A. You'd have to ask her. 11 Q. I'm asking you what you know about her. 12 A. I just know that she used her own name. 13 Q. Did you seek information with regard to 14 AMC Publishing? 15 A. I think that was the one I fed into the 16 search engine to find that they were holding a 17 conference somewhere because he hadn't provided me 18 any information about AMC Publishing. So I went 19 looking for it and saw the type of business that it 20 was and okay, I get the idea, and that satisfied my 21 curiosity. 22 Q. What do you mean search engine? 23 A. Well, a search engine is where you can go 24 on the Internet and you can feed in, you know, AMC 25 Publishing and it will go searching the websites. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 237 1 Q. Did you find anything when you did that? 2 A. As I said, I turned up a website someplace 3 that mentioned AMC Publishing was holding a seminar 4 somewhere, I think up in Georgia or Alabama, 5 someplace, and I said okay, I get the idea. 6 Q. Did you call up any third parties and 7 represent that you were an attorney? 8 A. No. That's illegal. 9 Q. Did you represent to anyone that you were 10 an attorney seeking information with regard to Lisa 11 McPherson? 12 A. No way. 13 Q. Did you represent to anybody that you were 14 seeking information with regard to Lisa McPherson? 15 A. No. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 Q. I'm going to show you what I'm going to 19 mark as Exhibit 1 and ask you if you recognize 20 this. And it is highlighted but when it gets 21 copied it won't come out. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Can we go off the record 23 for a second? 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 (Recess from 2:33 to 2:41 p.m.) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 238 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. I put before you Exhibit 1. Do you 3 recognize that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that a ?? would you describe that as an 6 Internet posting that you made? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And where did you make this from? 9 MR. DANDAR: Does that mean a city or ?? 10 Q. Location. 11 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 12 Q. What ?? what location? Is this from your 13 house? 14 A. Probably, yeah. 15 Q. So you were hooked up to some sort of 16 Internet connection in your house? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. And what is rider@eskimo.com, what is 19 that? Is that the search engine? 20 A. No, that's ?? that's the address, that's 21 my Internet address. 22 Q. Does that continue to be your Internet 23 address? 24 A. I still have it. 25 Q. The information that you seek here SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 239 1 regarding AMC Publishing Prodex, is that a name 2 that you got from Mr. Dandar? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Where did you get that? 5 A. From the documents. 6 Q. Did ?? is this something you did on your 7 own or were you asked to do this? 8 A. I did it on my own. 9 Q. You say in here that: My name is Robert 10 Vaughn Young and I have been retained as a 11 consultant by counsel for plaintiff in the above 12 cited case. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That's dated July 8, 1997, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is this before or after Mr. Dandar's first 17 visit? 18 A. This would be after, when we had 19 documents. 20 Q. Is this before or after Mr. Dandar's 21 second visit? 22 A. Probably after. I think this would be 23 after I had the full batch of documents and said 24 like, okay, now it's time to get rolling. 25 Q. Was there some agreement that you and your SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 240 1 wife at the time, Stacy, signed that would evidence 2 what you say here, that you were retained as a 3 consultant? 4 A. I think I've answered that question 5 several times. No. 6 Q. There is none, is that ?? is that right? 7 A. We've answered this question several 8 times. 9 Q. Well, I think that I asked you that 10 question during a period of time. I don't think I 11 asked you that question with the whole scope of 12 time, so let me ask you that. 13 A. However ?? 14 Q. Did you ever sign, you or Stacy, as far as 15 you know, ever sign an agreement or receive 16 something in writing from Mr. Dandar that 17 documented the fact that you and she had been 18 retained as a consultant in this case? 19 A. No. 20 Q. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Was this posting before or after you sent 23 the bill to Mr. Dandar? 24 A. Before. 25 Q. Did you charge him for this work? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 241 1 A. No. This is ?? this is not something I 2 would charge for. This is for my own education. 3 Q. Did you send anything else like Exhibit 1? 4 A. I don't recall sending anything else. 5 Although it says repost at the top, so I ?? it 6 looks like I sent this once and then maybe, you 7 know, if I didn't get any replies, maybe a week 8 later I would send it again. That's why it says 9 repost at the top. 10 Q. Did ?? did you receive any replies? 11 A. I got something which somebody told me how 12 to use a search engine because you can tell from 13 this I was asking ?? basically, I was ?? did not 14 know much about the Internet, so where do I go 15 looking? So somebody just told me well, what you 16 do is you go to this ?? this site and they would 17 give me an address and we feed it in and that was 18 my education. Did you hear me? 19 Q. Yes. In ?? any time after the time you 20 first met Mr. Dandar until you submitted your one 21 and only bill, did you communicate with an 22 individual named Ed Roberts? 23 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. 24 Q. Did you communicate with anybody in Texas? 25 A. About Lisa McPherson? I ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 242 1 Q. That's what I'm talking about, about Lisa 2 McPherson, yes. 3 A. Okay. You see, the Internet is such that, 4 you know, you can get mail from somebody and you 5 don't know ?? 6 Q. I'm talking about picking up the phone and 7 talking to them on the phone. 8 A. Oh. I don't remember ?? well, we were 9 talking Internet. Sorry. The name doesn't ring a 10 bell as far as an Ed Roberts. On the phone out of 11 Texas? 12 Q. Do you remember ?? I'm sorry. Go ahead. 13 A. No, I'm just ?? I'm just mulling. It 14 certainly doesn't jump out at me. 15 Q. And do you remember calling a woman named 16 Janice McDannel with regard to Lisa McPherson? 17 A. Janice, can you spell the last name or is 18 this just ?? 19 Q. I think that it's M?c?D?a?n?n?e?l. 20 A. Just from an audio surveillance tape or 21 what? 22 MR. WEINBERG: I move to strike that 23 gratuitous comment. 24 A. Just levity. Oh, give me one. Janice 25 McDannel? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 243 1 Q. Or Daniel? 2 A. No, we're both gargling it up. It doesn't 3 ?? again, it doesn't ring a bell. 4 Q. You don't remember taking it upon yourself 5 to call people and do investigative work with 6 regard to Lisa McPherson as part of your ?? 7 whatever it was you were doing on this matter, is 8 that right? 9 A. If I did, there wasn't ?? you know, there 10 was so little and of so little value because I only 11 remember working with the discovery docs and trying 12 to do the Internet search and coming up dry. I 13 don't recall if I called anybody to understand 14 anything else but it was not to really get ?? get 15 this type of information I was getting from the 16 documents. 17 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy didn't 18 conduct any investigative work like that during 19 that time period? 20 A. I don't know. She may ?? 21 Q. I said as far as you know. You don't 22 know, is that correct? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Okay. And in any event, when you sent the 25 one bill to Mr. Dandar, you don't remember billing SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 244 1 him for any work like that, is that correct? 2 A. Like what? 3 Q. Like calling up people and trying to 4 interview them. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Now, other than the enclosure letter that 7 you talked about ?? remember getting from 8 Mr. Dandar, do you remember any other 9 correspondence, written correspondence that you 10 received from ?? you and/or Stacy received during 11 that period of time from Mr. Dandar? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you create anything and/or did Stacy 14 create anything in writing with regard to the work 15 that you did with regard to this matter at that 16 time? 17 A. I think one time I might have sent him a 18 short e?mail message of a couple of key term 19 definitions, you know, like red tag or blah blah 20 blah, but ?? 21 Q. But nothing more substantive than that? 22 A. No, because my function was basically 23 orientation, interpretation of vocabulary, hooking 24 up between documents, answering questions as to, 25 you know, what ?? what is a ?? what's a WR? Oh, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 245 1 that's a weekly report, deciphering the lingo. 2 Q. So ?? so you were basically hired as a 3 consultant then, is that a fair statement? 4 A. Well, an expert consultant, yes, to be 5 able to translate things he couldn't translate. 6 Q. Not to testify but to give advice as to a 7 variety of documents that were being produced in 8 discovery, is that right? 9 A. Well, yes, but he also said would you be 10 able ?? if I had to ask somebody to testify as to 11 what this means, could you hook it up? I said oh, 12 yeah, it's not difficult. You take this 13 dictionary, this thing and you show ?? so it 14 doesn't require my percipient knowledge. I can 15 just hook it up with various documents. Yeah, I 16 can do that, I can do that. 17 Q. And was Stacy also retained in any 18 capacity at that point in time? 19 A. Well, same capacity as me. 20 Q. So sort of a consultant type, is that 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does there come a point in time where 24 Mr. Dandar falls off the face of the earth as far 25 as you're concerned and doesn't contact you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 246 1 anymore? 2 A. No, not really. We haven't been in 3 contact really, I guess, for maybe the last year 4 or ?? a little over maybe a year. But I didn't 5 consider him falling off the face of the earth. I 6 just haven't heard from him. 7 Q. Well, you were ?? you had your first 8 contact with Mr. Dandar you think three, three and 9 a half years ago, right? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. The ?? the small amount of work you did 12 took place in a matter of months, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And after that ?? 15 A. Let me clarify. That document work, 16 discovery document work. 17 Q. Right. Right. That took place in a 18 matter of months, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And then once that document ?? once those 21 matter of months was over with, you didn't do 22 anything else with regard to the case, right? 23 A. No, that's not what I told you a while 24 ago. 25 Q. What else did you do with regard to the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 247 1 case? 2 A. I answered that before. Occasionally, I 3 would speak with him. Remember that part? Answers 4 to specific questions. 5 Q. Well, you didn't bill for them? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. So you might have a phone call or 8 two and he might ask you what does SCN mean? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Okay. Other than a phone call or two like 11 that, did you do any work on the case after the 12 first few months when you were looking at the 13 documents? 14 A. No. It was ?? the work was pretty much 15 restricted to the documents and interpretations. 16 Q. Okay. But ?? but were you sent any more 17 documents after those first two batches? 18 A. As I said, I might have gotten the amended 19 complaint later on when this thing progressed. He 20 was just sort of updating me. 21 Q. But that was a fait accompli. It had 22 already been filed, right? 23 A. Filed. It had the stamp on it. 24 Q. Right. So you didn't get it and say give 25 me your input as to what it ought to say? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 248 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. So after these first two batches of 3 documents and the bill that you sent for the 4 looking at them and consulting, what other work, if 5 any, have you done on the case other than what 6 you've already said, the few phone calls? 7 A. Well, as I say the occasional consulting 8 and advising and interpreting as needed, and that 9 was pretty much it. 10 Q. You've not sent any other bills? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you expect to be paid for the 13 deposition? 14 A. This deposition? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. I would hope you pay me. 17 Q. Why would I pay you? 18 A. Excuse me? I've left Ohio, I've given up 19 medical treatment to come down here for a few days 20 at your request. 21 Q. No, no. Mr. Dandar is the one that 22 insisted on us going forward right now with your 23 deposition because of your health. 24 A. I ?? 25 Q. But you expect to be paid by somebody for SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 249 1 your deposition, is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And are you going to reveal to us how much 4 you expect to be paid for this deposition? 5 A. Do you want to negotiate? You almost had 6 a smile there, sir. 7 Q. I doubt it. 8 A. Oh, yes you did. 9 Q. What are you charging? 10 A. $100 an hour. 11 Q. And is that portal?to?portal? 12 A. No way. What do you mean by that? 13 Leaving the door, walking to the airport, that type 14 of thing? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. No. 17 Q. So did you ?? are you charging for 18 preparation time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. There really was no preparation time. 21 A. No preparation time. To me, it's just 22 depo time. 23 Q. So it's just ?? you're just charging for 24 the time that you're sitting in the depo? 25 A. I think that's fair. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 250 1 Q. All right. 2 A. Even though I'm losing a day on each end 3 coming and going. 4 Q. At $100 an hour? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then your expenses? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. And your expenses include what? 9 A. I had a 12?ounce glass of orange juice, 10 carrot juice, yesterday in the mall, so we're 11 running pretty light right now. 12 Q. Expenses include airfare? 13 A. Well, that's already covered. I've not 14 paid that ou