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Part One Transcript
Stacy Brooks: This is Kate Woodcraft. Kate, you want to say hi to the camera? Kate: Hi… Stacy: …Say hi to everybody. Astra, why don't you tell us the story of Kate. Astra: I had been in the Sea Org for about four years at this point and I was 19. And I hadn't been happy the whole time. But I had never really admitted it. And then, my dad's mother died. And I was able to get a week off to go to her funeral in England. So, I spent some time with my family. I hadn't seen my family in England for ten years. I spent some time with my dad. I hadn't gotten to spend a lot of time with him for the whole time I was in the Sea Org and it just dawned on me that I could not -- I couldn't take it anymore. I wanted to be able to see my family. I knew I'd never, ever be able to go back to England and see my family again. And I knew I would hardly be able to see my dad because I had already been told I wasn't allowed to see him other than this trip. But I had never said, you know, I want to leave. I had never said I'm not happy because if you want to leave, it takes, like, a year -- six months to year. You have to do hard labor. You have to wear, like, gross clothes and you're put under watch. Someone's watching you the whole time and you're called, they call you a degraded being. Stacy: What does that mean? Astra: That means you're, like, criminal. Like a bad person, like, a scumbag. And the staff refer to you that way. The commanding officer, Ron Norton, would regularly go up to the staff who wanted to leave and say, "Are you still a degraded being?" And they'd have to say yes if they still wanted to leave. So every single staff member is going to sneer at you, look down on you. It's, like, it's just a horrible feeling. And then you're trapped for six months because… I mean, people would say, why can't you just walk away? But, I have my mom. I have my brother and I have my sister and the grandma in the Sea Org. If I just walked away, they'd never, ever speak to me again. And I couldn't take that at that point, you know? So, it was partly that I couldn't stand the idea of, like, six months to a year of hard labor. But it was more that I knew they would just change my mind back. Because that's what regularly happened. That's what one of my jobs was to change peoples minds back who wanted to leave. Stacy: Right. How did you do that? Astra: Well, you know, it's just, like, duress. Like, you're out-ethics. Which, like, means you do, like, bad things. You've done bad things. You've done criminal things. What are you hiding, you know. And you're forced to admit, you know, thoughts you've had, bad thoughts you've had, things you've done. You get to the point where, you know, you just, you would rather just stay there than just, you know, have people looking at you like that, calling you things like that. Harassment on a daily basis, being under watch, you know. It's like, it's like the different between--if you were in a minimal security prison where you have some freedom and then you're going to be sent to the high security prison, you know? And you just say, okay, I'll stay but I'll just go back to the minimal security prison. Because at least, you know, you know, I'm treated like somewhat of a person as opposed to… So, that's what it's like. And it was my job to do that at one point and I knew they'd be out to break me because I wanted to leave so bad. And my resolve was really strong but so were a lot of peoples' and I knew they'd break me. You know, this over and over and over and I just, I thought I'm going to have to do something where then I just have to go. There's no choice and the rule was, okay, first you were allowed to have kids. Then, when I went in the, into the Sea Organization, you got sent away to lower org. About a year before I decided to leave, they made a new rule. And that rule was if you get pregnant, you get an abortion. If you won't get an abortion, you're out. And you're out and they give you a big bill. Stacy: So, you lose your job altogether… Astra: You lose your job altogether. Stacy: If you have the baby? Astra: Yeah. Yeah. And, you're still considered a degraded being and all of that but they just kick you out. First, they very strongly try and coerce you to get an abortion and I know several people who did, which I can go over in a bit. But, so I thought, and I wanted children too and I had been married since the age of 15. And I hated being married. My husband and I didn't get along at all. We could not talk about it 'cause I couldn't -- the main reason was I didn't want to be there and I could never tell him. And it was just ridiculous, you know, being married at 15. I had known him for three months. I didn't know him, you know? So, I didn't want to be married. But I had the impression that I would never want to be married again because this is what marriage is like. But I did want children. So, I thought, I'll have a baby. They'll let me go. I'll have a baby, you know, without having to get married again 'cause I never want to get married again, which is not true now. That's how I felt then. And I thought that way, I'll get pregnant. If I refuse to have an abortion, if they can't break me on that, which I knew they couldn't once I was pregnant then they won't be able to do anything other than let me go. And I won't have my husband come with me 'cause I don't want to be married to him and I didn't really think he wanted to be married to me anyway. And at that point I wanted to leave so badly but I felt like I was a bad person. So, I felt that I shouldn't make him come out too. Because that would be even worse. Up to, after I left, I still thought it's my fault, I'm a bad person, I've done things wrong. I can't, you know, confront my crimes but I have to leave 'cause I can't stand it. 'Cause that's the whole, like, thing in Scientology is if anything goes wrong, if you get sick, if you break something, it's your fault. You know, you've done something wrong. It's never, it's never, like someone else's fault. So that's what I thought. So, this was in October of '97 and in about (laughs) in about, December, end of December, early January, I got pregnant. And, then, but I didn't tell anybody. And I was very sick. I had really bad morning sickness. I couldn't eat. I was throwing up about 20 times a day. But throwing up nothing because I wasn't eating. Just, you know, going through the motions. But I would just, I'd be working and I'd run downstairs to the bathroom and do it really quietly so no one would hear me. And no one knew. And I still was, I was so terrified to leave. But I decided because I was so sick and I was so tired that I was just going to take off. I was going to get on a plane and go stay with my family in England for a little while I, like, got better. And then I would come back. I… I planned on following their policies on leaving. Because if I just took off and didn't come back, they would declare me a Suppressive Person, which means that my mom, my sister, my grandma, my whole family would never speak to me again and I didn't want that to happen. At that point, I was planning on still being a Scientologist--being a good Scientologist and all of that… Stacy: You just didn't want to be… Astra: Just wanted to leave… Stacy: Yeah. Yeah. In the Sea Organization. Astra: Yeah, I just couldn't take it anymore. So, my plan was to go England for a little while then come back and do their process of leaving and then leave. So that's what I did in, uh, the end of February. One day, I, I got a day off 'cause no one knew what was going on. I had been awarded, you know, one of the best staff member awards and, you know, they thought I was great. You know, they thought I was a really good staff member. Everything was wonderful. And, one day I took the day off and I went and saw my dad. And they had told me I can't go see him but I went and saw him anyway. And then the next morning, I had, I had already packed all my clothes in my car and I just went to the airport. And I went and checked my baggage and as I was walking through the security thing, where you, where they check your check-on baggage, my brother walks up. My brother is in the Sea Org. And he goes, "Hi Astra," and he was with a security guard from, from where I worked. Stacy: You're kidding. Astra: (laughs) No kidding. This was… Stacy: What did you do? Astra: Okay. It freaked me out but I had half expected it because I used to have to do that. Stacy: Oh. Astra: I used to be sent to the airport to get people who were taking off. But I was very surprised that they knew exactly what terminal I was going to be in… Stacy: Yeah. Astra: …and everything. And, so he says, "Hi Astra," and I said, "Hi Matthew," and I walked straight into the bathroom. And I figured I will just sit in the bathroom until my flight is boarding and I'll walk straight from the bathroom to get on my flight. So, I did. I sat in the bathroom. He sent a little girl in to, to tell me to come out. And I said, thank you and I stayed in there. Then, after everyone had left the bathroom, he came into the bathroom and I wouldn't open the stall. And he climbed over and started talking to me. Stacy: You're kidding. Astra: And he, I, so finally I said, "Okay, I'll come out." 'Cause anything… Stacy: What was he saying to you? Astra: He was saying, "I have mom on the phone. Mom wants to talk to you." I was terrified of anyone talking me out of going. I knew they would be able to. My, I was, I was sick. I hadn't eaten for, like, weeks. I hadn't been able to keep anything down. I was exhausted. I was, like, on the verge of a mental breakdown if I hadn't already had one. (non-interview dialogue) Astra: I knew, you know, they would just have to say a couple words and I was feeling guilty. I was wanting to leave but I was feeling so guilty that what I was doing was so bad. I had written notes to people saying, you know, crying, saying, "this is all my fault. I'm a horrible person and I've done wrong. But I have to go." Stacy: You had left notes for people? Stacy: You gave him that note in the bathroom? Astra: Well, I came out of the bathroom at that point and I gave him the note. Stacy: So, you didn't even want to talk to him? Astra: No. (laughs) I did not want to talk to him. So, and I started walking. And then this security guard, whose name is Mike Valiente, (sp?) started saying to me, you know, "We can work it out." You know, the, the typical lines. "We can work it out." "Let's have…let's just stand and talk." "Let's calm down," blah, blah, blah. I just ignored him. I said, "Read the note I just gave my brother." And I kept walking. I was waiting in line to board and my brother was standing there with me. And I was crying. I started crying. People were looking at me. And I said, "I'm just going to cool down, to, to, you know, to get, to get better and I will come back. I won't get declared a Suppressive Person. I'll come back." And my brother says to me, "You're not being a Sea Org Member." Obviously, not the brightest thing to say to me at that point. And I said, "Well, I'm not going to be anymore." And he's, like, "You need to speak to mom. She's on the phone. She feels really bad." Well, I know how my mom is and she is not going to be saying, "Oh, Astra. It's going to be okay." She's going to be saying, you know, you need to go back," you know, 'cause she's very, a very fanatical Sea Org Member. So, I was just trying to ignore him and I got my boarding pass and then I was waiting in line to board. I had my passport and my ticket in my hand. Luckily, I was holding on tightly because my brother got desperate and tried to yank them… Stacy: Oh, gosh. Astra: …out of my hand and make a run for it so that I couldn't leave. I was holding on tightly and he, you know, it was like a little back and forth and he let go. Stacy: What were the other people doing? Astra: I (sounds like) smashed…but, I don't know. I mean, I was crying. I was mess so I knew people were looking at me but I didn't really know. And it was, I mean, I should have, I would have called security other than the fact that one, he's my brother. And two, you know, I felt like I'd get declared a Suppressive Person if I did that. 'Cause if you report anyone to the authorities… Stacy: Right. Astra: …so I was trying to keep it cool. But, I'm, like, oh my God, he's trying to take my ticket and my passport. So, I said, "I can't believe you did that!" And I just got on the plane. Then a stewardess comes up to me with a note from my brother saying, "When you land, call your mother," you know. 'Cause he had been saying to me, "She's on the phone. I have her on the phone. You have to speak to her. You have to speak to her." So, I'm just crying. I'm a total mess. I got on, you know, I'm on the… Stacy: But you got on the plane! Astra: …plane. And it took off. I'm, like, oh, my God. Stacy: (laughs) Incredible! Astra: So, my plan, when I landed, I had maybe 25 or 30 dollars. I was going to change it to English money and catch a bus to my aunt's house. I didn't even know, (laughs) I knew their address. That was about it. I thought, I didn't, I had no plan. I had, uh, you know, 30 dollars in my pocket after the ticket 'cause I spent all my money on the ticket. And, but what I didn't know, what I found out after is, obviously at that point they knew where I was going. I was going to England. My mom was trying to get, was arranging with where I worked, with the security department, to get people from the Organization in England's security to meet me at the airport, which I knew it was, that was going to happen. 'Cause that was what happens: If you can't stop them getting on the plane, you have someone--'cause they have organizations everywhere-- meet them at the airport and send them back or, you know, whatever they're going to do at that point. So, I figured that was going to happen. That was what I was expecting. But what had actually happened was my dad had said, "If you have people at the airport, she is going to flip out. I'll have my sister meet her." Then, then you know, 'cause he was trying to do what was best for me. So, I expected them to be airport. So, I got off the plane. I changed my clothes and I put my hair up. And I threw away my umbrella 'cause I thought they'd say I should have an umbrella with because it was pouring during that time. And, you know, so I thought I looked totally different so no one would recognize me. 'Cause the people in England didn't know me. They'd only recognize, you know, they would give a description of what I was wearing. So, then after all this, I finally walk out and there's my aunt and uncle. And I was so happy! Because they have nothing to do with Scientology. They don't like it at all. And I was so happy but they had been waiting for, like, an hour 'cause I was doing all this stuff (laughs). Stacy: Oh. Stacy: Your mother was telling you this? Astra: My mother was the main person who was, like, "You have to get an abortion." Because, I then ended up speaking to, like, the authorities in the Sea Org. But I said to them, 'cause one mentioned abortion. And he said, "L. Ron Hubbard says…" I said, "L. Ron Hubbard says abortion isn't okay." And he said, "L. Ron Hubbard says it is okay because he says, the spirit doesn't enter the body until right before birth. So if you have an abortion before that…" And I knew that. That was, like, the line going round. If you have an abortion before, you know, when, you know, when the baby is only a few months old or a few weeks, it doesn't affect anyone. It, it's just like killing an animal because, uh, the spirit's not there so it doesn't matter. Anyway, someone said that to me again and I said, "Look, if anyone says to me the word 'abortion,' I will not come back. I don't want to hear it." And I was just really mad. I said, "I don't want to hear it. No one better speak to me about it or I'll just hang up. I'll refuse to speak to and I will not cooperate." I said, "Otherwise, I will." Stacy: Who were these people talking to you? Astra: There was, uh, oh God what's his name? It's, (laughs) I forgot his name. He was, he was a very high up executive. But there was, he, his job was also the Chaplain because that was one of the, the posts underneath him that was unfilled. So, he was doing it from the Chaplain point of view. Chaplain - you need to get an abortion. His name will come to me in a minute… Stacy: Okay. Astra: But, then I spoke to a woman named Kirstie Wilhair (sp?) who was, like, my senior senior. And I spoke to a girl who was a friend of mine and my husband's friend and I spoke to a man named Jeff Porter who's the chief of security international. Stacy: I know Jeff. Astra: Yeah, so do I. (laughs) I have other things to say but, yeah, he was just like, "You come back or you get declared." Kirstie was nice and saying, "Just come back. Let's sort it out." The other man whose name will come to me, was the one who mentioned abortion. I said, "Don't ever mention it again." But my mother continuously mentioned it regularly. "You should get an abortion. What am I going to tell Zoe? You should get an abortion? How are you going to raise the baby? You should get an abortion. You should get an abortion. You should get an abortion," just repeatedly… Stacy: How old was Zoe at that point? Astra: Thirteen, probably. Twelve or thirteen. That was what got to me the most was the sister thing. 'Cause I didn't know she didn't want to be there and I thought I had just ruined her entire life's plan and messed everything up for her. Stacy: 'Cause you two couldn't talk about this either? Astra: No. In fact, my mom never even told Zoe about it. Zoe found out about it because she saw a report that my (stammers) that my husband had written on my dad--saying it was all my dad's fault. I'll go into that later, too. But that's how Zoe found out. No one ever told her. So, that was what almost got to me. But I just kept saying to her, "Mom, I can't live my life…" You know, "I've lived my life based off of what you want and I'm finally doing what I want. I can't now change it because of what you're saying Zoe wants." I said, "I feel very, very bad. I don't know what to say to her. But all I know is the most important thing is, you know, I have to do what I want to do. And this is what I want to do." And she just never got it. She never got it to this day that, you know, I'm doing what I want to do. I said, "I'll go back on April 1st. I'll be back on April 1st." And what I, I actually came back two weeks earlier. I flew back and I stayed with my dad for a couple weeks. I went and saw a doctor. I started getting everything under control. Uh… Stacy: But were you able to start getting sleep and eating? Astra: Yeah. 'Cause at my aunt's house, you know, she, she got me some prenatal vitamins, some folic acid, which is important to take. All these things. I was able to start eating. 'Cause part of the reason was I was very sick. And the other part of the reason was the food there is hard enough to eat when you're feeling well. When I was feeling nauseous, I could not stomach, you know, the foods they serve. Now, I was eating actual regular food and I could stomach it. And my morning sickness went from being sick ten times a day or more to once every couple days, you know, which is a bit more normal. Yeah, and I got a lot of rest and I, I, you know, I helped at their work for a couple hours a day. And I talked with my aunt. And my aunt's, like, a wonderful lady. And, you know, she was really helping. And I was saying, "My mom's saying I should get an abortion. What do you think I should do?" And she said, "You should do whatever you want to do," you know. My dad had said to me, "I'll do -- you do whatever you want to do and I will support you," you know? He said, "If you want to keep the baby…" and he got in big trouble for this, just for saying, "If you want to keep the baby. I will support you. You can come live with me. You can work for me. I will help you." And, he got in really big trouble. My mom screamed at him, "You're a Suppressive Person! I'm going to get you declared!" All kinds of stuff. So, anyway, so I ended up going back. I ended up going back, two weeks before I said I would. They didn't know I was in LA 'cause they'd come and get me. I stayed with my dad. I went and saw a doctor. I got everything even more under control and then I went back on April 1st. And that was really hard to do. Stacy: Yeah. I bet it was. Astra: It was really, really, really hard to do. I was terrified… Stacy: But were you stronger feeling than you had been when you left? Astra: Yeah. But I was still terrified and I was dreading the next month or however long it was going to take. I was really, really dreading it. But I, I, uh, it was that or never see my family again. So, I did it. I went back. But I said, "I'm going to stay with my dad. And every day I will come in and I will get a confessional. I'll do everything you want but I'm going to stay with my dad. Because I need proper food. I need a nice bed. I need all this stuff and you can't provide that for me." Stacy: Because you're -- you were having to get a security check… Astra: Yeah. The confessional or… Stacy: …everyday. Astra: Yeah. Yeah. So… Stacy: And what's the purpose of that when somebody's leaving? Why is that happening? Astra: Because, well, one of the reasons is L. Ron Hubbard says in a policy, "The only reason that people want to leave is because they have overts and withholds. They have things they have done that are wrong that they are withholding." And if you get them to admit these things and handle them, they will… Stacy: They'll stop wanting to leave. Astra: Yeah, they'll stop wanting to leave. But at that point, I was pregnant. I was going to leave anyway but so (stammers) at that point it was more for a security purpose. They wanted to find out -- most of the questions they asked me were security related. You know, "Do you have any documents? Have you stolen anything? "Have you…" "Do you plan on going to a newspaper?" "Do you plan on," you know, "speaking derogatorily about Scientology?" You know, those were, those are the main questions. So, and then it was, like, "Have you done anything wrong on the 2-D?" Which means, have you done anything, like, sexually bad? Like had bad thoughts, you know, had sex with someone else? Nothing of which I had done but they, of course, they're going to ask that. 'Cause that's another thing they consider is a lot of the bad things you do are related to, like, sexual things. So, I said, "I'm going to stay with my dad and I'm going to do. I'll come in everyday and do whatever you want me to do. But I'm going to stay with my dad." And they said, "You can't. You have to…" and I knew they'd say this. "You have to stay in your unit." They said, "You can stay in your old room but you have to stay there." And I said, "Well, what am I going to eat?" You know, and they're, like, "Oh, we'll work it out or whatever." So, I was arguing with the security that I wanted to stay with my dad and he finally said, uh, he was threatening me. And then he finally said, "Okay. This process is going to take three or four days. So, if in three or four days you're not done, you can go back and stay with your dad." So, I said, "Okay. Write that down." So, they had the security chief, Richard Metzler, write down "If you're not done," you know, "You're going to be done with your process by this date. And if you're not, you can go back and stay with your dad while you finish it." So, four days later, I don't even think they had started my confession. They may or may not have. That's another big thing is you have to have a confession before you leave. They have no one to do it. That's why people are there for six months to a year. But I knew they were going to rush me out a bit. They didn't want the staff seeing me getting more and more pregnant - give… Stacy: Right. Astra: 'Cause it would give people ideas to get pregnant, you know, that that's what's being done. Stacy: And you weren't looking pregnant yet? Astra: I didn't look pregnant at all until after I left. You couldn't tell at all. No one knew. And I, and then everyone who, the few people who did know were told in no uncertain terms can they tell anybody else. So, four days later, I said, "Okay. I'm going back to stay at my dad's house because I'm not done yet." And they said, "If you do that, you will be put under a non-enturbulation order, which means if you do one more thing that's, you know, that upsets somebody…" for instance, saying "I'm going back to my dad's house" or anything. "If you don't cooperate one hundred percent, you will then be declared a Suppressive Person." So, they might as well have said, "If you go back to your dad's house, you will be declared a Suppressive Person." Stacy: Right. Stacy: Incredible. Astra: So, I just thought, "Fine. I'll just stick it out and just get this over with" 'cause I really had no choice at that point. So then I started going in for my confessionals and I told you what the questions were already. It was, like, you know, "What have you done?" And at that point, I still thought that the E-meter works and if I didn't tell all I was in big trouble and they'd know. So, I, of course, you know, told every thought I ever had, told all this stuff, you know. Probably made up stuff to make it sound good 'cause if you don't make it (stammers) if you don't make it really sound like you've done something then they're not going to believe you. And, everyday then, in the evening at about six, I'd say, "I'm leaving" and I'd go back to the room. And then, I'd have to eat, like, a micro waved meal. Like, you know, Stouffer's microwave macaroni and cheese or something, which isn't what I wanted to eat at all. I was having a hard time stomaching that. Then, during the day, I was really tired. I was tired all the time. And during the day, I would have to come back in the morning and they were supposed to set me up a bed that I could nap in while I was waiting 'cause I would have to wait hours for my confessional. But they never set it up. I had to sleep on the floor in, like, a little tiny office on the floor with a blanket everyday while waiting. And then, they were saying, "What are you doing sleeping all the time? You should be doing your, your ethics handling, which means, like, reading policies on… Stacy: Scientology policies. Astra: Ethics. Scientology policies on ethics and, you know, all kinds of stuff to, you know, to handle me. So I would be a better person. Stacy: Well, to make you decide that you should stay. Astra: Yeah, and have an abortion. Or, if that didn't work, uh, you know, to stop me from doing anything against Scientology in the future. Stacy: Mm-hmm. Astra: At one point, I was standing outside waiting for a ride back to where I was going to stay and a staff member from the Religious Technology Center, which is, like, the very highest organization in Scientology--and these people, like, you're terrified of, everyone is. You have to call them sir. You can't do anything. If you, like, someone once tripped one of them or something and was… Stacy: You mean by accident? Astra: …by accident. Totally by accident or bumped into them. And he was, like, put on hard labor for, for accidentally tripping him. This is, like, how scary these people are. He comes up to me and he says, "What are you doing, Astra?" And I said, "Well, sir, I'm pregnant and I'm leaving." And he said, "Are you getting a confessional?" And I said, "Yes." And I was, of course, not saying it like this. I was, "Yes, sir," you know. And he said, oh, no…actually, let me rephrase that. He said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm pregnant so I'm leaving." And he says, "Oh! Too late for an abortion?" And I said, "No…" Astra: Unbelievable. Astra: So, then he said, "Are you getting a confessional?" And I said, "Yes." Astra: Who was that? Astra: You know, I wish I could remember his name (laugh). He used to, he had a little sports car and he used to drive it round. And the license plate said, "Standard Tech" abbreviated on it. And he was very high up. Very well known but I forget his name. If someone told it to me, I would be able to say yeah, that's his name. You know, he was scary. (laugh) Astra: Yeah. Astra: He used to, like, scream at people -- get in their face, spit on them, things like that. So, I saw him do that, you know, grab people. And so I was terrified of him. That he said, "Oh! Too late for an abortion." It was just, like, I couldn't believe he even said that. Astra: Incredible. Astra: So, then I, I continued getting my confessional. I finished that. I had to read some policies and I had to write what's called Knowledge Reports on people who I had thought had done bad things. And then I had to sign an affidavit. I knew I was going to have to sign that. That's another thing they have you do before you leave. And they write down all the bad things you've said you've done and then they make you write up all the wins you've had in Scientology, which you, of course, have to make sound great. 'Cause if you don't, you're back for more confessionals and you're not leaving till you sound like you love Scientology and you're leaving 'cause you did bad things. So, I wasn't about… Astra: Wow. Astra …to disagree with anything they said. I, I wrote up, "In Scientology," you know, "I've learned to communicate. When I came into the Sea Org," you know, "I was very out-ethics and they really helped me and if it wasn't for them, I don't know where I would have ended up." I just made it sound…I just…I knew what I had to say and I said it. And I also knew that whatever I signed was not legal because they said, "You can't leave unless you sign this. If you sign it, you're going to be declared a Suppressive Person and your family will never see you again…" Astra: If you don't sign it. Astra: "If you don't sign it. So you better sign it before you leave. You have to. You have no choice." That's not legal 'cause that's duress. So I kind of had an idea of that. Astra: Yeah. Astra: So, I thought, I'm just going to sign it. I'm just…and I wasn't planning on speaking out or anything. I still thought I want to be a Scientologist, etc. Astra: Even after all of this, you still wanted to be a Scientologist? Astra: 'Cause you're so indoctrinated into the fact that it's your fault. Whatever happens, if you don't want to be there, it's your fault. You've done something out-ethics. You're a bad person. You're irresponsible, you know, you can't confront things. I believed that. Astra: Mm-hmm. Astra: But, I also just physically and mentally couldn't take it anymore so I was leaving thinking I was horrible person. Astra: You just weren't good enough to be in the Sea Org. Astra: Yeah. Astra: Yes. Astra: I wasn't good enough. I couldn't make it. I didn't have what it takes. Astra: Yeah. Astra: Yeah. So, I…signed it and then I left and they searched through my car and through my room to make sure I wasn't taking anything that belonged to them or that was…any documents or anything like that. They had, when I was there, put together my bill and given it to me. They give you a bill for…here's an example: I did, like, a computer course on how to learn to operate their computers. I did a course on how to do my job. They had to restructure their management and I did several courses on, you know, they had written a bunch of new policies on their new management…I had done that. And then I had gotten sec checks--confessionals--hours and hours and hours and hours of them. I had gotten them before 'cause if you go on the high posts in, like, certain areas, you have to get one before you go in so they can make sure you're qualified. I had done all of this. I had done, you know, just two or three things that were actual, like, Scientology spiritual things. I did the Purification Rundown and a couple courses. The reason I'm saying that is the policy about freeloaders was written because, apparently, people used to go into the Sea Org just so they could get free service and then leave. 'Cause you don't have to pay for it if you're on staff most of the time. So, they wrote this policy that if you leave, you have to pay them back for everything. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous but I hadn't even done Scientology. I had just done, like, training. Astra: Yeah. Astra: So, they give me my bill. It's $89,000.00 (interviewer laughs). And even I was in shock. I was, like, I've only been here for four and a half years and I owe $89,000.00. But, I thought, "Oh, I'm going to have to figure out how to pay." And I started…I was so scared that I'm going to have to pay this, I started working out a budget before I left. "Okay, I'm going to work full-time. I'll make $400.00 a week. I'll send them $100.00 every week. In ten years, I'll have it paid off…" Astra: (laughs) Oh, gosh. Astra: "Hopefully, before then, I'll get a better paying job." And I was writing it all down and trying to figure out how much stuff for the baby would cost so I could still send them like a quarter or half of my money and…my mom had said to my dad, "Do you know what Astra's freeloader bill is?" And he said, "No." And she said, "It's $89,000.00 but it's not your problem. She's going to have to pay it." (laugh) So, that's my mom's point of view. So, then after I left, that was basically it except they called me several times 'cause they wanted me to come in for Media on various investigations they were doing. And I didn't want to come in. I was done. But I got more threats so I had to. And I was asked about, "When you did this job three years ago, did you say this to somebody?" "Did you tell people they could take a vacation without first getting a confessional?" Things like that. So I had to go back in several times for that. And then that was about it except I got called and sent mail regularly about my freeloader bill. They were asking me, "Get your dad to help you pay it." You know, "Don't you have some money somewhere?" "Doesn't your dad have some money?" "Can't you take a loan out?" To pay this money to them. I once sent them $20.00 just to say that I had sent something 'cause my mom was, like, "Just start sending money. Just start and, and soon, you'll be able to pay it off." That was all I ever sent…$20.00 or $25.00. When I was eight months pregnant, my husband…when I had left…I had also told him, "It's all my fault. I'm totally responsible. I feel really bad for what I've done to you. So, you don't have to pay me anything. You don't have to pay child support. I don't expect you…I want you to be able to stay in the Sea Org," you know. But he had said, "I want to be there when she is born. I want to see her," etcetera. And I was, you know, at the time, fine with that. You know, I wasn't going to keep him from seeing her. But when I was eight months pregnant, I all of a sudden got a letter from him. And he said, "I've been thinking about it…" and I knew he had been told he had to do this. And "I've decided that being in the Sea Org is the most important thing." I have this letter with the exact words but, something like, "Being in the Sea Org is the most important and so I've decided not to see Kate and not to see you…" and you know, "just be in the Sea Org and that's it and I hope you understand my decision." And I thought, he could have at least called me, you know, he could have at least had the guts to call me up. So, then I thought, fine…you know, I'll just leave it. So, I had Kate and…but his parents…I let them come see her 'cause they were nice and I wasn't going to stop them. I don't, you know, want to stop her family from seeing her. And they're her family. So, they came every two weeks about and came to see her…came to visit for, like, a morning… Astra: How did you feel about your baby? Astra: Oh, my God. (interviewer laughs) I was so happy. I was so happy 'cause, in my pregnancy, other than the morning sickness went really well. And when I had her, it went really well. And I was just really, really happy. I was just, like, amazed. I couldn't believe…I couldn't believe I had been able to leave and I had my baby and, you know, I had done it. I was just, like, oh my God. I was so happy! I didn't care that I was doing it by myself. I didn't care about anything. I was just, like, you know, I've done (laughs)…I was just so amazed that I had been able to do what I wanted to finally. That I had, like, pushed it all the way through and, you know, not gone back and relented, not had an abortion. And then she was, like, sitting there and I just couldn't believe it. It was amazing. So, then my mom…I called my mom and she was like, "Oh, I'm proud of you." And she was nice about it, of course, 'cause she's not going to be, you know, on the phone when I've just had a baby…she's not going to be, like, hostile. Jason, my ex-husband's parents were coming to see her. Then, when she was about six months old…I had been working full-time while I was pregnant up to the day I had her, I was working. And then I started working again within a week afterwards. But then, of course, it was not as many hours. I wasn't working full-time. I started not having any money, you know, to even be able to pay for things to her…to help pay for food or anything. And it got to the point of being ridiculous and I felt I was draining money away from my father. So, then I started thinking…and at this point, I had changed my mind about Scientology. I had come to realize what it really was. Astra: And how had that happened? Astra: Mainly, you know, it was my dad and I going back and forth because neither of us thought it was really bad. He wanted me to leave the Sea Org. He felt the Sea Org was really bad. But…going back and forth, swapping stories and me telling him more and more. And, as I told him more and more about what had happened, I realized more and more how bad this was, you know? As I told him, "I wasn't allowed to make phone calls to you. I was told I couldn't see you. When I used to come and see you, it was in secret." Astra: And he hadn't known this, of course. Astra: He hadn't known that. "When I told you I was going to school, I wasn't." Like, as I'm saying these things, I was coming to realize. And as we talked back and forth, that's what so been the very best thing. If you have someone to talk about it with who then says back to you…this…you know, doesn't say, you know, don't talk about it. And doesn't say, "Well, that's all your fault." Astra: Right. Astra: You will come to realize that it's not your fault and you have someone backing you up, you know. And it just was…like a…it just came about like that. I started realizing more and more and both of us got to the point where we were like, "Oh my God!" You know? So, that's really how it came about and then I read a book, "L. Ron Hubbard - Messiah or Madman?" Astra: By Bent Corydon. Astra: Yeah. I just kind of flipped through it. I didn't read the whole thing but I read parts of it and that was it. You know, I had had enough at that point but I wasn't going to say anything. 'Cause I still wanted my relationship with my mother and my grandmother and my brother. But anyway, so I had gotten to the point where I really felt that I needed to get Jason to pay child support and I no longer felt… "It's all my fault. I've done wrong. So I'm going to handle it." I felt like, hey, (laugh) you need to…not necessarily him but Scientology in general. So he should either get a job, you know…or they should, as part of his pay, pay him some money that he could pay his child support 'cause you get paid $45.00 a week there. So, I wrote him a letter. I said, "You know, I've been thinking about it and I really do need child support. You are her father. You are responsible." No answer. No reply. I wrote another a couple months later. No reply. I started calling. Finally, when she was about a year old, I had arranged a meeting. They said, "Come in. Don't bring the baby. But come in and you'll speak to the lawyer at OSA (?) and you'll speak to Jason. We'll get something worked out." 'Cause he had said, "I'll pay you a quarter of my pay every week." It's like, $7.00 or what is that, like, probably like $10.00 or $12.00 a week. And I said, "You know, that's money, like for you to buy shampoo. I'm not going to take away, you know, your shampoo money." It's ridiculous. I knew how it was to get $45.00 a week when you got paid and that's horrible. And I'm not a horrible person. I wasn't going to take away the few dollars he had. That's not what I wanted and it wouldn't help me anyway. You know, $40.00 a month is just nothing. So I went in there and I took her with me. I never went anywhere without her at that point, really. And I wasn't about to leave her just 'cause they said, "Don't bring her." Like, "don't let him see her…it might…you know, upset him or something." So, I brought her with me anyway. They had… Astra: 'Cause he had never seen her. Astra: He had never, ever seen her. He had seen her picture because his parents showed him a picture 'cause I had given them pictures. At six months, when I had first written a letter about child support. All of a sudden, his parents disappeared. Never heard from them. Astra: Really? Astra: Never heard from them again. And I realized after a period of time that that was why. And I asked Jason when I saw him…I said, "Your parents, I haven't heard from them in six months. Why is this? Do you know?" And he said, "Yes, I got upset. You know, I was mad you asked me for child support. I told them not to see you anymore." And I was, like, wow. He only admitted it to me at that point 'cause he was trying to get on my good side. So, he was trying to be honest with me trying to get on my good side so I would stop asking for child support. So, I get there and they have Helena Cobrin who is a lawyer in OSA. Astra: I know her very well. Astra: Yeah. And she said, "Oh, I'm just here to help explain to you so you understand, you know, the laws and I've dealt with cases like this before. So you understand. So, I said, "Okay." And she says…she's, like, well, Scientology isn't obligated to pay anything and I said, "I know that. I just said Jason's obligated to pay and he works here. So, he either has to get a job or you know, you guys pay…pay him to pay me. Pay him more money so that he can pay me child support." I said, "I don't think…I'm not asking Scientology to pay. I'm not saying Scientology is obligated to pay me one penny. He is obligated." So she said, "Well, I've dealt with cases like this before. And if it went before a judge, a judge would say he has the right to work wherever he wants. He's in a religious organization so he doesn't have to pay." And I said…'cause…see when we got divorced, I put I want full custody, legal and physical. And he didn't contest the divorce so basically that's what the divorce said. And it said visitation to be determined by me and child support to be determined by a judge. And since I wasn't originally going to ask him for it, I never went and got, like, a hearing to determine it. So, I said, "Well, I'll just go get a hearing and have the judge determine how much Jason should pay so that Jason knows what he's legally obligated to pay." They didn't want that, of course. And I said, "Look, from what I've studied, the judge always makes the decision based on the best interest of the child, not the parents." They don't care, you know, about the parent. They care about the child. Astra: You were feeling much stronger by now. Astra: And how did you know that this wasn't just Jason changing his mind? How did you know he was being ordered? Astra: Well, I knew him for one. I had been married to him for, like, four and a half years. And I knew from my old job of exactly what's done. It would have been my job to tell him, "Do this. Now do this." And I also knew the post changed a lot and different people come in with different opinions. And because this was a relatively new thing of people leaving and having a baby, it wasn't sorted out and they didn't really know what they were doing. So, opinions were being thrown back and forth. And actually, I knew even more because I asked him. I said, "Why did you write to me and tell me you couldn't see her? Were you told to do that?" And he said, "Yes." You know, he said, "I was shown these policies and I was, you know…and then I decided…you know, with some help that it was the best thing." And same thing with telling his parents not to see her anymore. So, he told me he was told that but I knew already, you know. So, then I said, "Okay. I'll think about it." 'Cause he was now saying he wanted a relationship with her. And I thought about it and I thought, "Okay. Well, I'm not going to say no. But I'm going to test him." 'Cause I personally don't think…I had read if your child has a parent that's going to be there some of the time but it's not set in stone, they're not going to see them once a week or, you know, even once every two weeks, if it's just going to be they're kind of there and they're kind of not and they show up once in a while, it's better that they're not there at all. Because that's so hard on a child for…it's so unstablizing for them to be in and out of their lives. And I thought, "I can't have this for her." So, I said to him, I said, "How about this? If I drop the child support thing…if I just don't ask you for it anymore, you don't have to see her if you don't want to." And he said, "Okay." So, then it was obvious right there that that's all it was. He didn't actually want to build a relationship with her even though he had already seen her twice. So, I thought that's the very best thing for her. It's so much more important that she just grows up normal, doesn't have any, you know, Scientology in her life at all. That's so much more important than child support. I'll just have to make due. Astra: So, you dropped the child support? Astra: I just dropped it, you know? I just said, "Fine. Forget it." You know, I had to do what's very best for her. So, I just started working harder, you know…and stuff like that. So, yeah, so at that point, that was about it. His mom called me before I had told him, "Okay, you can drop it." His mom called me and said, "Jason said we can see Kate again." And I said, "Well, why did you need his permission?" And she couldn't answer that. And then I said, "Okay. You can see her. All you need you to do is just…" and I was really nice to her. I said, "I understand, you know…" we weren't mad at each other. We weren't yelling…it wasn't…'cause I was always…we were always friends. She's a very nice lady. And I really felt bad for her. I really felt bad because she was so torn. Because she's in Scientology but didn't agree with what Jason was doing, wanted to see Kate and I knew she was really torn. But in the end, I can't think about that. I've got to think about Kate. And that's what I said when I went in there. I said, "I'm not here to cause trouble. I'm not here to make a problem. But I'm the only one in this room who cares about her well being. I'm the only one for her. She can't speak for herself. I have to have a one track mind. I have to go…I have to be the one who is only thinking about her and not thinking about other people and, you know, their problems and things like that." So, when I was talking to his mother, I said, "You can see her. That's fine. You can see her again. I just need you to do one thing. I need you to promise that if Jason asks you not to see her again, you won't agree to it again. You've already, you know, stepped out of her life once. She's older now. She'll remember you. I cannot have you do that." And she said, "I don't think Jason will ask me to do that." And I said, "But if he does, you know, it's likely he could. If he does ask you that, will you promise not to do that?" And she couldn't promise. She said, "I can't promise because, you know, what if you get declared?" She said, "I don't think that's going to happen but what if it did? You know, then I'd have to stop seeing her." So, I said, "Well, when you can promise that you won't step out of her life just 'cause someone says you have to, you know, then you can see her." And then I just didn't hear from her. Astra: Have you ever heard from her again? Astra: She sent me a card, like, a week later saying, you know, why haven't we heard from you? But she knew why. That's how we ended the conversation, "If you can just promise that, then you can see her." And, yeah, I never heard from her. Astra: Never again? Astra: Never heard from her again. Never again. Astra: Well, Kate sure is… Astra: Not even a card for her birthday, you know, nothing. Not even Christmas. Nothing. So, that was the end of that. Astra: Well, Kate sure is a lucky little girl. Astra: Yeah. Astra: She's beautiful. Astra: Thank you. So, yeah, but I think, you know, she's…we live with my dad. So, she has Zoe to play with and she has my dad as, like, a father figure until she gets another one. So, you know, I don't think she's…you know…if it was just me in, like, an apartment by myself--that would be really horrible. You know, that would be horrible for her.
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