Heber Jentzsch


Radio Broadcast



The Steve and D.C. Show
July 14, 2005

Two Scientologists appear to explain the basic beliefs of Scientology. Luckily, Professor Dave Touretzky is also on the show to point out where they are lying.

Touretzky masterfully gets them to admit that space opera is a major part of Scientology.


The Steve & DC Radio Show, July 14, 2005

Reverend Ellen Maher-Forney and Mr. Brad Baumann,
Church of Scientology of St. Louis
Professor David Touretzky, Carnegie Mellon University

Transcriber Notes: This transcription is verbatim. Some limitations
based on web site Real Audio transfer and recording audibility are
included. Efforts have been made to be accurate. Question marks indicate
something that could not be deciphered (or spelled).


HOST 1: The movie War of the Worlds has made three hundred and
seventy million bucks ($370,000,000) in just like 2 weeks. Tom
Cruise has been everywhere talking about Scientology.

HOST 2: Will he give 10% to the church?

HOST 1: I don't know!

HOST 2: How much would that come out to be?

HOST 1: What is scientology? What is it? You see it a lot lately.

HOST 2: You hear it all over the news...

HOST 1: Very fascinating segment coming up in just one moment. Stay
with us.


HOST 1: I don't know if you have seen, the movie yet, War of the


HOST 1: It's a very very good movie, and, how could you avoid it
lately because the marketing campaign was so massive, and not only was
there a campaign where they paid for commercials and (?) but then you
had Tom Cruise everywhere.

HOST 2: You know what that has caused too? There has been a run on
people wanting to see the original. A lot of people that never saw the
original are going out trying to find it and want to watch the original
War of the Worlds now.

HOST 1: I've never, I mean, I've seen the original but I do know
that this film I thought was pretty good it's made $370 million

HOST 2: That's pretty good

HOST 1: In just, well, it came out June29th

HOST 2: Right

HOST `: Do the math. We're talking just a couple of weeks now,
370,000,000 bucks it's the biggest film Tom Cruise has ever had...

HOST 2: Mm hmm...

HOST 1: ...so far, and, and the biggest for Steven Spielberg.

HOST 2: Now are we about to... learn about scientology, because we have
a million questions because... is Tom cruise responsible for our
curiosity for the most part?

HOST 1: For me, it's because you've heard so much lately in just, in, in
talking about Travolta ...

HOST 2: Travolta, I believe, another scientologist...

HOST 1: Uh...is Kirstie Alley?

HOST 2: I believe Kirstie Alley.

HOST 1: Is that right? So you, you hear so much lately with the Tom
Cruise thing; that I've heard people say, I don't... "What is that?"
"What is that stuff?" "What is scientology"?

HOST 2: We can not have a better guests to help us understand because I
see here from the info sheet that we've been provided, that Ellen in
particular who we're about to meet is good at explaining things in a
simple way.

HOST 1: Ah!

HOST 2: How ideal for this radio program.

HOST 1: That could be helpful!

HOST 2: How ideal for the hosts of this radio program.

HOST 1: Hi Ellen, Good morning!

HOST 1: Good morning

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: {gulp} Good morning

HOST 1: We caught with a mouth full of water; I'm sorry, nice to see ya.
And you brought, Ellen is a minister; you've brought a parishioner
from the church, Brad along, Hi Brad, how are you?


HOST 2: Pleasure to see you guys.

BRAD BAUMAN: Thanks you for bringing us on.

HOST 1: How long, ah...we'll start with Brad ... you're a parishioner.
How long have you been a scientologist then?

BRAD BAUMAN: 29 years.

HOST 1: Wow. Well now you see? Once again let's just start with stuff we
didn't know. I didn't know it had been around that long. I had no idea.
I'd only recently started hearing about it, and I say recently, within
the last, maybe, 10 years, and now because of the celebrity prominence,
and immediately I first thought, Ellen and..and Brad, when I hear about
it this is a religion for, for celebrities, I guess it's 'cause (?) the
news, I think that's part of it

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well Scientology is, appeals to people of all
walks of life.

HOST 2: You don't have to be a movie star, do you?


HOST 1: I wanted to say at the beginning I forgot to, that anytime,
of course we always keep our phone lines open, but at anytime throughout
the segment if you have a question, a comment, whatever, 1-800-9-wakeup
is the direct line through to the studio here, 800-9-wakeup. Now, when
you go back and you, the things that I've heard, and you, you wonder
what's true, what's not true, you see a lot in the media, with the Tom
Cruise deal, I keep hearing this whole thing is based on an alien by the
name of Xenu. That there's this big alien named Xenu and that's the root
of Scientology. How does Xenu, or whatever that is, play into it?

BRAD BAUMAN: (stutters) That is not the root of Scientology.

HOST 1: So Xenu, whatever that is, I don't even know what it is. I don't
understand it, but I just keep hearing that thrown out from time to
time. So that, that has no root in Scientology.

BRAD BAUMAN: There is something that's been drawn out of context...

HOST 1: Mm, hmm

BRAD BAUMAN: ...from confidential materials, and has really nothing to
do with the basic tenets of Scientology

HOST 1: I see. Give us, the basic tenets, if you can, of Scientology
this morning

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well, one, probably one of the very first ones is
that we see each individual as a spiritual being, and um, we find that
there are certain things that are very important in life
including affinity reality and communication which builds to
understanding. And through Scientology, one becomes more aware of
themselves as a spiritual being, becomes more aware of their
fellows, their relationship with others, and eventually comes to a
personal relationship with the supreme being.

HOST 1: With "The" supreme being. Your, with, with your idea of God?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: He's the supreme being. Mm hmm.

Hosts: (something intelligible)

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: The creator, the author of the universe,

HOST 1: Ok, Are there Scientologists who refer to the supreme being as


HOST 1: Ok, right, now, what another thing that you hear from time
to time is, is, that you you've got a, a meter, I saw it on the sheet
in, in the belief sheet, a nerve assist, I see, real technical
stuff that I don't understand, so, dumb it down for us, if you will.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well, what I have been talking, um, to your producer
about, was um, the symbol of scientology which is an "S" with a double
triangle. One of the triangles is, has "ARC" which stands for Affinity,
Reality, Communication, and the other is "KRC" Knowledge,
Responsibility, and Control. And I said especially after 9-11 occurred,
that was where the KRC triangle really came into play, because
Scientologists have the knowledge of technology we call the "Assist"
technology which helps people when they're in a state of trauma. And, in
fact, it was the volunteer ministers of the Church of Scientology, which
were the ones that the, um emergency medical technicians, and the
firefighters demanded be on the spot to be able to help them.

HOST 1: I see


HOST 1: At ground zero firefighters?


HOST 2: Really? Wow, ok so what did that do, for the, for the

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well, there were two main basic assists that were
used. One is called a locational which helps orient a person in their,
in space and time because if you experience a trauma, sometimes it
reminds you of something you've had in the past. So you could be, um,
thinking of that or, you know, consumed with that, and so you're not
able to react quickly, that kind of thing so this brings the person into
present time.

HOST 1: That's location assist


HOST 1: And then Nerve assist, is what?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well that's something that if you can kind of
imagine that um, that when someone is working really hard for a long
period of time, and they, can, and the nerves can kind of trap,
energy, and so the nerve assist basically goes along the nerve channels
and allows that to be released.

HOST 1: Something that it sounds very enjoyable. Now, are you
taught to do that?
Is it, is it something that you learn to do for other people?


HOST 1: It is, ok.

BRAD BAUMAN: And in fact anyone can come into the church and take a very
basic course, I believe it's $15 and learn how to do these assists
on others.

HOST 1: I don't want to use the word, because I... we've talked about
it, Massage, but that is what I am thinking when I hear, particularly
about nerve assists and, and just in terms of, of tight, tense, and the
ability to relax physically. Am I...is that close? Is... how close is

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well I've, I've only had a massage a couple of
times, and and, from what I get is that there is real deep down

HOST 1: I'm glad you said that because sometimes...

HOST 2: I had a deep sports massage once and we were told that it would
be the greatest thing in the world..

HOST 1: It didn't feel very good...


HOST 1: Look, I... I... I'm man enough to admit, I was in tears, it hurt
so bad! I like a softer touch...

HOST 2: I do to!

HOST 1: A gentle softer touch

HOST2: Yes.

BRAD BAUMAN: I think you might like a type...nerve assist


HOST 2: I can use a nerve assist right now

HOST 1: Now, of course, with when you have in... in America what
some people consider, you know, mainstream religions, Catholics and
Evangelical Christians, that sort of thing, I am just, I'll just bottom
line for you ...

{Hosts play bible belt evangelical Christian track}

HOST1: How are for example Christianity and Scientology compatible? Are

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Scientology can be used by anyone of any faith.
Scientology is not mutually exclusive. That's why we don't have dogma
with regard to the Supreme Being. The person comes to their own personal
realization of their relationship with the Supreme Being.

HOST 2: Are many, or, how many of your scientologists, generally
speaking, I guess, ...combine scientology with some other faith?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: It's a small percentage. I would say, most
scientologists are strictly scientologists.

HOST 2: but it does happen

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Oh ya, absolutely.

HOST 1: Is it, is it... I heard another, another thing that I thought
was an interesting question that I wanted to ask you guys, is it, a, I
heard some say, really, if you think about it, when you hear what Tom
Cruise is saying that "It helps people get off drugs" that it's been
very successful I guess,

HOST2? : Don't be glib!

HOST 1: I'm going to try not to be, in helping folks get off drugs, and,
of course, he says it helped him with... what was he, a uh...


HOST 1: yeah, that he was helped in that area. I've heard some say,
"should it be called, is it a religion or more of a self-help (?)... or
is it a full-fledged religion?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: It is definitely a full-fledged religion.

HOST 2: Although religion ought to be self-help

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: (laughs) really

HOST 1: well, there's a difference in getting a 10-step self-help


HOST 1: and like for example there are people that are in A.A., or


HOST 1: that probably wouldn't' consider it their religion, If you ask
what's your religion, they wouldn't say "I'm N.A." I mean, so that's
considered more of, I guess, a self-help thing

HOST 2: I consider all religions "self- help".

BRAD BAUMAN: Well, in fact, if you look at the history of religions, and
the way mankind has typically handled these issues and problems within
societies, done through religious counselling it's only been within
recent history that man has created these help, 'self-help'
organizations, and now, you know, they're they're trying to reverse
that back and say there's some sort of connection or some some
mis-alignment when a religion is doing the same thing, and yet
historically, that.. that has been the root of, or the basis that,
that, the place where people have gone to for their help.

HOST 1: I'm going to tell you where you're going to loose me, now,
You're going to lose me, I'll be honest about this, I'm very candid,
you're going to lose me when they open the church of Dr. Phil, at that


HOST 1: We've talked about this somewhat in, in dealing with this
today... we saw, both Steve and I saw a, I believe it's Professor...
I'm... I might be off on this, so, make sure that I'm right, Professor
Touretzky are you on the line?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Yes, I am, good morning.

HOST 1: OK, you're with Carnegie Mellon University, is that right?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: That's correct, we're in Pittsburgh.

HOST 1: In Pittsburgh, ok. And what, give us, because I don't, I'm not
for sure you're a professor, your your credentials a little bit.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: I'm a professor of computer science, I'm a
free speech activist and I've been observing scientology for the past 10

HOST 1: We're... we've got the lines are jammed with people who have
questions and that sort of thing. Professor Touretzky, has a totally
different view, and he says that there's a website claiming that
Scientology took part, he.. he claims... unless I'm getting it wrong...
in a woman's death. What, what is up with that, Professor Touretzky?

HOST 2: And what do you mean when you say "took part" be specific, what
are you talking about?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Well this is the case of Lisa McPherson. She
was a scientologist for 18 years and, in 1995 she wanted to leave
the church. she suffered a mental break-down, and and was taken
to the emergency room at Morton Plant Hospital in Clearwater, Florida,
and the Scientologists came and got her, convinced her to leave
against medical advice, took her back to their headquarters in
Clearwater, and, she became progressively worse, she was being held
against her will, she was denied medical care, she was forcibly sedated
with chloral hydrate and liquid valium, and eventually, she died of
severe dehydration. She lost 40 lbs in 17 days, her body when brought to
the emergency room at another hospital, 25 miles away because it was
staffed by a scientology doctor, was covered in bruises and insect
bites. The autopsy photos are on the web. It's just a horrifying thing
what happened to this, to this woman. And it resulted in criminal,
charges filed against scientology and a civil lawsuit, filed by her
family, against the church.

HOST 1: Let's ask Ellen and BRAD...


HOST 1...if they're familiar with this case or their comment on it

BRAD BAUMAN: Yes, absolutely, and in fact, a lot of what he's portraying
is, is incorrect and very inaccurate, and the case of of both the civil
and criminal cases were both dropped

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: That's not true, that's not true.

BRAD BAUMAN: Excuse me. Yes, Mr. Touretzky it was.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: The civil case was not dropped, it was
settled. Scientology has to pay.

HOST 1: Professor, one at a time, please.

BRAD BAUMAN: Yes, Thank you. One of the things that's being
misrepresented here is the woman had a traffic accident. That's why she
was sent to the hospital. It was her choice to to, take on the
medical treatment that she did, and decline the medical treatment that
she declined... there was never any link to activities of
scientology, or it's it's leadership in her death.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: And I just wanted to add, that um, what she actually
died of was a pulmonary embolism. You can't tell me that people don't
die in any religion. And it's something that usually happens, it's been
found by studies, when a person experiences an injury to their leg. So..

HOST2: The blood clot will sometimes travel to the heart or lungs, and..

BRAD BAUMAN: Yes, yes...that's what happened..


HOST2: I... I've heard that ...that many times...

HOST1: So professor, you're you're, through this website linking this
or, or, I guess by exposing it, and us to the website, to scientology.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Ya, the website is called LisaClause.org.

HOST 1; who owns, who owns the website?


HOST 1: Oh, it's your website.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Yes, Ah, LisaClause, L-i-s-a-c-l-a-u-s-e- dot

HOST 1: Why your interest in this and motivation to the point in, I
mean, certainly you have the right, but I'm interested in what motivated
you to create this website.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: This is only one of half a dozen other
websites that I have to expose the various criminal activities of
Scientology. But my real concern, with Lisa McPherson is that this is
not going to be the only case. Scientologists are required to sign a
release form, which we call "the Lisa Clause" that gives Scientology the
right to do to them, what they did to Lisa McPherson. That is, to hold
them against their will. To subject them to any treatment that
Scientology deems appropriate, and the form says that Scientology
cannot be held legally responsible for the consequences.

HOST 1: Ellen, Brad, our guests, our scientologists, did you sign "The
Lisa Clause"?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Unfortunately he's portraying something, comple...
this is what happens when you have someone who has absolutely no
experience with the church himself. There is a, a particular agreement
that scientologists sign which is for our benefit. It basically says
that we are in disagreement with psychiatric treatment and we want
our...treat... we want to be... helped by members of the church.

HOST 1: That's where the Tom Cruise thing comes from on the...on the
Today Show

HOST 2: The controversy over Ritalin, and kids...

HOST 1: Right, right... you sign something stating that you believe...I
say that again the way you just said it, that that you believe
psychiatric treatment is, is wrong? Is...

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: It's just not something that we, we as
Scientologists, subscribe to.

HOST 1: In any form or fashion, ever? Or does it depend, is it a case by
case situation?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: That's correct, in any f...

HOST 1: Case by case...

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: No no no, in any form

HOST 1: Any form! So no one's child should be on Ritalin, or no one
should take an anti depressant or, or let me ask you: Should any child
be on Ritalin?

BRAD BAUMAN: have you ever seen anyone cured by Ritalin? Have you ever
seen anyone cured by an anti-depressant?

HOST 1: No, They mask the problem...

BRAD BAUMAN: Exactly, and should you treat the problem but not the

HOST 1: But why can't....well, I haven't seen some people cured of
Cancer but I've seen them treated by the drug, you know what I mean?
Helped them with their pain, or whatever and sure it it masked... it
doesn't necessarily "cure"... I can't say I have seen that.., but still
not every drug is a cure for the illness..

HOST 2: But in other words what Scientology is saying is deal with the
source of your depression, don't mask it with a pill.


HOST 1: but on this specific Ritalin sh... that's a no-no in
scientology? Would you ever, in scientology, ever have a child that is
on Ritalin or one of the other ones? You know, they're all the
same, but.. any of those?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: well look at the fact that we have 8 million
children in the United States...

HOST 2: Oh, it's a definite problem.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Mm hmm. And we, the United States is something like
90% of the usage of these types of drugs. Why is that?

HOST 1: well my question is...

HOST 2: because it's an easy quick fix

HOST 1: I think it's way way over prescribed, but my question is should,
in your view, in scientology's view, should it ever be used? Ritalin,
or, ah, ah... I wish I could think of the other names...

Voice in background: Adderall ?


HOST 2: Adderall

HOST 1: Adderall, Ritalin, should these ever be used in scientology

HOST 2: And what does the medical community say? And do you have doctors
in the church?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: We do have doctors in the church,

HOST 2: Psychiatrists...? No?



HOST 2: I wouldn't imagine too many psychiatrists are members,

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well, a lot of psychiatrists are coming out in
agreement with us and so is the FDA. Here's the... here's the really
interesting thing about some of the controversy that's occurred
recently... is that the issue is being ignored, the issue is really, you
know, the drugging of these children, and um, a black box warning just
came out, like in the last few weeks, saying that these drugs lead
to suicide and homicidal behaviour.

HOST 1: When you're taken off the drug later?


HOST 1: Or.. when you're on it... as a side effect almost?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Yes, yes...exactly

HOST 1: I think you're going to find some sympathetic ears to the
Ritalin argument...I really...

HOST 1: But still, my question is should in scientology's view a child
ever, any child ever be put on Ritalin, or a drug like that?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Not in my view.


HOST 1: And does the church, is that the stated belief of the church
officially, or just your view?

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: well, according to our creed, we um, we believe that
uh... that mental, mentally caused illnesses should not be alienated
from religion or condoned in non-religious fields.

HOST 1: Ya, as Matt Lauer said, on The Today Show, that he had observed
it seemed many children or children ah.. I don't know if he said many,
but children that have been helped...

HOST 2: Right.

HOST 1: ... significantly

HOST 2: or people that had been helped by antidepressants. Or would the
Church argue that they're not really being helped?


BRAD BAUMAN: Well exactly, they're not being helped, there again, their
symptoms are being masked, they're not really addressing the issue...

HOST 1: I mean If I...

BRAD BAUMAN: ...the person has

HOST 1: If I'm feeling down because of something that's happened in my
life and I go buy a fifth of whisky, I may feel pretty good tonight...

BRAD BAUMAN: Mm hmm...

HOST 1: ...but tomorrow when I sober up, and I see this as a pretty good
analogy, tomorrow when I sober up, the problem is still there, it may be
worse, and I'm going to feel awful tomorrow. Is that the same thing with
these medications?


HOST 1: Psychiatric medications?


HOST 1: My only problem with this, and I understand a lot of what you're
saying and I can agree, but it seems to me that it, it it's pretty
drastic, and.. and... and radical to say "never" in the case of Ritalin
or other psychiatric drugs.

HOST 2: You're touching a lot of, touching a lot of parents out there
right now who because there are so many that have children on Ritalin
who , and you're right, it is over prescribed, I think. I know , I know
somebody whos ...whos, I, I don't want to get into, you know, their
name or anything, and be too specific, but I don't want to hurt
feelings, but she has all five children on Ritalin. Now, I can see,
maybe, the argument that her teen has it, but not the five year old, the
seven year old, the nine year old, and just on up the ladder, So a lot
of parents are obviously relating to this.

HOST 1: But to say "never" ...

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: The thing is...

HOST 1: ...concerns me.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: ... if you, if you actually took a child or took
anyone who's experiencing some sort of mentally..

HOST 1: mm hmm

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: ...caused ill, to a, uh.. medical doctors, strictly
medical doctors and did a thorough searching exam they lots of, like in
70% of the cases they'll find lactose intolerance, you know...

HOST 2: Another cause.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Exactly. Something physical that can be handled.

HOST 1: when we come back we're going to grab some more calls because
our phone lines are jammed. When you hear someone hang up that means you
can get in. Dr. David Touretzky when we come back, I want to find out
about this...

HOST 2: Really.

HOST 1: He says that Katie Holmes' life is in danger right now. We'll
find out what that means, and what he means by that, he's a professor
from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And more
with our guests, Brad Bauman, and ... Boman? Bauman??


HOST 1: Bauman. And Ellen Forney... they are members of, of Scientology.
And, of course, Ellen is the director of community affairs.

HOST 2: And we will work your phone calls in too, the lines are filled
at 1-800-9-wake-up. When you hear it, the line clear, we promise to do
that (??) grab it nation wide toll-free. 1-800-9-wake-up, all about


HOST 1: We're talking about Scientology because of Tom Cruise, quite
frankly and all the, the deal in the last month or so, and the big
movie War of the Worlds.

HOST 2: and we, we're obviously going to because of limited time going
to leave a whole lot of ground uncovered. Scientology dot org, O-r-g for
more information scientology dot org is the website. And then we have a
professor on the phone, Professor Dave Touretzky, and he has several
websites about scientology. Your website that you mentioned earlier,
professor Touretzky?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: The earlier one was LisaClause.org .

HOST 1: I have to ask you, sir, there's some things pulled from your
websites that are disturbing. Some quotes, some comments and I want
to ask YOU about this morning. Some of these I can't even say without
losing our license to broadcast.

HOST 2: Which I spoke to professor Touretzky about those off the air I
ask him, I said, we we'd probably get into this, and he said, that he
thinks it's unfair, he hasn't personally attacked our guests. He thinks
that it's just a way to muddy the waters and attack each other

HOST 2: This isn't a personal attack, I mean if you put this on your
website, you obviously are standing by it, you know, the quote...

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Where on my website? What are you talking
about? There's nothing on my website that I'm ashamed of or embarrassed

HOST 1: Alright then you tell me if any of these things are on your
website fair to you, you speak for yourself, let's be fair here: "the
Salvation army, a bunch of blank-heads" is that on your site?


HOST 1: Alright. "Man, Hispanics are blanked up which is why they're
still the working class blanks". Is that on your website?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: No, it's not, none of this stuff. I've seen
this nonsense from them before. This is something from Scientology's
Office of Special Affairs, It their...

HOST 1: bomb instructions...

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: It's their dirty tricks squad

HOST 1: Bomb instructions on how step-by-step guide to make a fertilizer
bomb? Is that on your website?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: I do have a website about a free speech
case, which involves a young man who I think was unfairly prosecuted
by the government. And because I have a website about this free speech
case which includes the evidence against this young man, there is...

BRAD BAUMAN? : It's included there, eh?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: There is some very poorly worded, very poorly
written amateur bomb instructions that's written by a 16 year old high
school student.

HOST 2: Alright. What about "blank the Muslims, check out the bloody
Muslims, geez, what loons"?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Oh, come on. What kind of lunatic would put
that type of thing on a website?

HOST 1: Well that's why we're asking here,

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Well I'm telling you and I think we ought to,
we ought to, if you just want to keep reading this defamatory this crap
you're going to waste the time of your listeners.

HOST 1: Alright, I understand, we just wanted to give you a chance to
respond, and and um BRAD you provided us with this information... He
says it's not accurate.

BRAD BAUMAN: And, um, it may not be on your website, Mr. Touretzky, but
it was put on the internet by you.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Was put on the internet by the Office of
Special Affairs and the Church of scientology. You can not cite any website
of me or any Internet posting of me. That's not my public statement. It's
scientology's public statement...

BRAD BAUMAN: It... it... it came out of... your university was... was...

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Came out of where? Where?

BRAD BAUMAN: Your e-mails.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: My e-mails? What e-mails? E-mails to whom?
And when? What are you talking about? You're making this stuff up.

BRAD BAUMAN: No one is making it up...

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: You've got no... you've got no citation. My
e-mail? What do you know about my e-mails? He's just making this stuff
up. Do you think I would e-mail stuff like that to scientology?

HOST 1: Well let me, let me ask you this question then, because I... I
think he has a point, the professor has a point, that we could go round
and round attacking each other all day and saying "you're this" and
"you're that", and, and not get very far, but I think it's fair now,
since we've done that to Professor Touretzky, to give Professor
Touretzky a chance to say what he thinks he claims scientologists and
our two guests, he says, are not telling us, he's got a couple of
questions for them. So go ahead, professor.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Thank you. I... I think your listeners have
not yet heard what Scientology is really about, but I appreciate the
opportunity to ask reverend Forney and Mr. Bauman about this, so let's
see how honest they're willing to be on the air. Isn't it true that the
essence of Scientology is past-life recall? You're taught to recall
traumas, "engrams" L Ron Hubbard called them, from not only your present
life, but, from your past lives as well? Is that not true?

BRAD BAUMAN: Yes, we do believe in past lives.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: And you believe that you can recall your past


PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Now that's one area where Scientology differs
from other religions that believe in past lives: Hindus and Buddhists
don't believe that they can accurately recall information from their
past lives; but Scientologists do. Now, isn't it the case also, though,
that Hubbard believes that we've lived these past lives over
millions of years... or perhaps even billions of years? That's what L.
Ron Hubbard has written in his... in his writings, isn't that true?

BRAD BAUMAN: That could be the case.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: OK, and now, wouldn't it make sense then,
that since the human race is only about 400,000 years old, that some of
our past lives were lived as other, other species on other planets?
Scientology believes that as well, doesn't it?

BRAD BAUMAN: It's not a part of the tenets, in that form, no.

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Well let me read you a quote from the
technical dictionary of Scient... of Dianetics and Scientology, this is
L Ron Hubbard's definition of Space Opera. He says space opera is of or
related to time periods on the whole track millions of years ago, which
concerned activities in this and other galaxies. Space opera has space
travel, space ships, space men, intergalactic travel, wars, conflicts
other beings, civilizations and societies, other planets and galaxies.
It is not fiction. It concerns actually incidents and things that
occurred on the track. Do you believe that?


PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Ok, so now we're making some real progress
here. Scientologists believe in past lives, they believe some of their
past lives were lived as aliens, and in other civilizations in other
galaxies, and so, doesn't it make sense then that this Xenu story, which
is this story of how this evil galactic overlord Xenu, murdered billions
of galactic citizens 75 million years ago and dumped their bodies on
volcanoes here on earth. Wouldn't that make sense to Scientologists
who've been through all this past-life recall training that the Church
gives them?

BRAD BAUMAN: Well, first of all, let's get off the word "alien". That
assumes, a... a lot of other... um... for lack of a better word, I
guess, uh...UFO type science fiction-y garbage

HOST 1: (right) ... little green men from mars

BRAD BAUMAN: (right) Ya, as far as the other story that you want to
bring in here, Mr. Touretzky, that's lifted from illegally gotten
documents that were stolen, that... that are confidential documents.
I'm not going to honour those with any...

HOST 1: What are confidential documents in the Church? What is that?

BRAD BAUMAN: The.... There are some higher levels of auditing,
that...which is our form of counselling...

HOST 1: huh...

BRAD BAUMAN: ...that's done, that involves some materials that are
confidential until you get to that level.

HOST 1: So you ha... when you get to that level, you can read those
things or see those documents, but until, if I go to the church
tomorrow, because I want to join or learn about it, there are certain
things involving the, I don't want to say doctrine, ah, beliefs, I don't
know what the right word is, but there are certain things that I won't
be able to read until I reach a certain level or...?

BRAD BAUMAN: It only involves your counselling, it doesn't involve the
basic understanding of your relationship as a spiritual being ...

HOST 1: If I go to the church and want just the basic information...


HOST 1: What happens?

BRAD BAUMAN: A... a... a tremendous amount of information that...

HOST 1: Right. Right. Is it given to me at the Church? How would...what
would I do? How does that work?


HOST 2: What would be the purpose; there must be some rationale behind
why that information is not revealed until you reach a certain level.
What is the thinking there?

BRAD BAUMAN: Th... the main reason is, in... in any counselling process,
uh... you... you're only getting what it is you need at that point, at
that stage.

{someone says something unintelligible in the background}

BRAD BAUMAN: Ya, and these materials are just, just at a higher level.
You know?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Can I just break in here?

HOST 1: Yes

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: I think Mr. Bauman is confused about what's
confidential and what's not. Warren McShane who is a high level Church
official testified in court that the Xenu story is not itself considered
confidential for Scientology, the only thing that's confidential is the
exact procedure, by which you remedy the spiritual upsets caused by
what Xenu did to these poor space aliens. But it's ok to talk
about Xenu. Warren McShane talked about it in open court and testified
under oath that Xenu... the Xenu story itself, the galactic overlord,
this head of the galactic federation of 75 million years ago, that that
is a well-known piece of Scientology theology and is not confidential.

HOST 1: We have to take a break. There's a legal battle or has been then
over the material that Professor Touretzky has accessed and made
public. And... and you guys are alleging that it is illegal, this
information that he wasn't supposed to have access to, he somehow got it
and has publicized it.


HOST 2: Yes. Have the court ruled...

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: He perverted it, first.

HOST 2: Have the courts ruled in this case?

BRAD BAUMAN: Uh... I'm not sure.

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Yes, they have, they have.

BRAD BAUMAN: In this case, in this case, I'm not really sure.


ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: In the... in the case of the stolen materials, it
was ruled that the person who stole them was an incredible witness and..
was... he was dismissed because...

HOST 1: A lot of our callers want to know why so many celebrities are
into it, I know both of, both of our guests have views on that
and... do you have to be rich to be a scientologist?

HOST 2: 1-800-9-Wake-up we will take the calls that have been holding
too as we do our last segment when we get back with Ellen and Brad and
Professor Touretzky, and we're talking about Scientology.

HOST 1: 47 after, be right back.


HOST 1: The only thing I hate is that we're running out of time,

HOST 2: Oh, I know.

HOST 1: This stuff is so fascinating, and there's so much stuff to
talk about ...

HOST 2: Can we just as quickly as possible... I don't want to do a
disservice anybody. We've had a lot of people call with some very
interesting questions it's raised. It may be quicker if we just repeat
the question, I know you guys are listening, and and then we can get our
guests to respond to them as quickly as possible.

HOST 1: Well, I know one... one of the top questions we've gotten is
why are so many celebrities into scientology? I'll first ask Ellen and,
and Brad how they feel about that..

ELLEN MAHER-FORNEY: Well... as I kind of alluded to earlier, um, people
of all walks of life, Scientology appeals to everyone. And, um, we
can't really... I can't really speak for the celebrities; it's not my
duty or desire to presuppose why they would want to get into scientology
but I can tell you from my own experience that it gives me a stable
point from which I can, then, live my life.

HOST 1: Brad, do you have any thoughts on why a lot of celebrities seem
to be attracted to it?

HOST 2: As I've pointed out to both of you before, if you read anything
printed in the media they say "Tom Cruise, the Scientologist", "John
Travolta, the Scientologist". You don't hear that with Tom Hanks, with
Harrison Ford, with, Glenn Close, you...that... they don't point out
their religion...

BRAD BAUMAN: It's only because there's some controversy they can tie to
it so the media pumps that out and it appears that there are a lot of
celebrities and it's this big celebrity-based conspiracy or something
and that's not it at all. Some people found something that works for
them and it, they have been very successful... if, if you look at it,
the celebrities that are in scientology are doing very well

HOST 1: Professor Touretzky, why do you think Tom Cruise, for
example, since he is the hot one right now, why a is Scientology
attractive, or ... why is he a Scientologist?

PROFESSOR DAVID TOURETZKY: Oh, Scientology actively recruits
celebrities; they even have special celebrity centers where celebrities
are fawned over and pampered. Tom Cruise doesn't see the ugly side of
Scientology. As a Scientology celebrity, he gets very special
treatment, very special handling.

HOST 2: Do you have celebrity centers? Ellen Forney and Brad Bauman?

BRAD BAUMAN: We do have celebrity centers, but they're not fondling
these people ...

{End of mp3}

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