|
|
|
|
 |
|
The
Stacy Brooks Interview In 1995, Stacy Brooks gave her first on-camera interview about her experiences inside the Church of Scientology. Presented here for the very first time is the complete unedited interview as given to Kurt Loder for MTV.
KURT LODER: How did you first become involved in Scientology? What drew you to it? STACY BROOKS: Um, I was about 20, um, it was 1975. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, I was, um, looking for answers to things as young people tend to do and, um, [clears throat] I was very idealistic. Um, and I met some people who were in Scientology and, um, described it in a way that made it seem as if it would solve all my problems. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, I told them a little bit about what was happening in my life and they told me that Scientology would resolve all of those things for me. So I thought that sounded pretty good. Um, and I--that was how I first got into it. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um-- KURT LODER: Did you have to go to a meeting first or something or was-- STACY BROOKS: [nodding her head]Uh-huh-- KURT LODER: How long did it take-- STACY BROOKS: There were, there were--there was a series of four free lectures. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Given at a mission which is one of those smaller lower level organizations in Scientology. [clears her throat]This is in Atlanta, Georgia. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and the series--series of introductory lectures is at a very simple level, um, very basic concepts about communication. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Just really very common-sensical-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: --kinds of concepts, and, um, really nothing that anybody would particularly object to. Um, and, uh, things that struck me as being, uh, just what I was looking for. KURT LODER: Yeah. And so you--how did you pursue it? STACY BROOKS: So, um, the next step in Scientology is to buy a course. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: So I did that, I bought a course which was [clears her throat] the next step up, um, again fairly basic concepts, um, and the whole process in Scientology is one of very, very gradual steps further and further into the organization. So, um, [clears her throat] you know, part of it also was that I was making friends at the same time and I was starting to hang out with these people and I got a job working with all of these people and, um, it’s really--it’s really a very all-encompassing, um, kind of a--kind of a philosophy. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And a, and a--you know, the organization encourages you, um, to work with other Scientologists, to have friends with other Scientologists--not to talk to people who aren’t Scientologists, um, unless you’re disseminating Scientology to them. And right away, as soon as I started to take my first course, um, my world began to change from what it had been before into a Scien--a world with Scientology boundaries, basically. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, again it was a fairly gradual process, but within a few months, I didn’t know anybody but Scientologists. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: I was thinking like a Scientologist. There’s a whole language, um, that is part of Scientology which other people would have no way of understanding. You start to speak with almost a foreign language. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and because you’re thinking in these concepts which are foreign to anybody else, it’s much easier just to talk to other Scientologists. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: It’s much easier just to hang out with them. They’re the only ones who really understand you. Um, they’re the only ones who--you, you now begin to feel that they’re the only other people in the world who really know what’s going on. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and everybody else is, um, ignorant and in need of being told about Scientology and being brought into Scientology. And that’s really what the world becomes for a Scientologist. KURT LODER: Yeah. What are the--when you were initially getting involved in it, what is, what is it they’re telling you? What--what is Scientology? How do they explain it? STACY BROOKS: Um, the way it was explained to me, the first very simple description that I was given by a woman that I met at a restaurant, was that, um, after we had chatted for a little bit-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, Scientology is a way of, um, learning how to communicate better and get in control of your life. And for whatever reason, just that little simple statement, um, uh, intrigued me-- KURT LODER: Uh-huh. STACY BROOKS: And made me want to hear more. So I went to these lectures and I was told [clears her throat] some very basic concepts about communication. Um, one of the concepts is, um, uh, that there is, um, a triangle which is what communication is made of. And the man delivering the lecture had a blackboard and he would draw these concepts up on the board. Um, and the--that particular concept is what they call the ARC triangle. It’s a very basic Scientology concept, and basically, um, Sci--in Scientology, communication is composed of affinity, reality and communication and, um, it’s sort of all very formulaic. And you--if you want to increase your communication skills then you have to, um, increase one of the other of those particular aspects of your way of communicating and it’s, um, it’s all basically, uh--it turns everything into a very mechanical process basically. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Communication becomes a very mechanical process, um, um, everything that you’re thinking, all of your thought processes, become very mechanical. Um, it’s, it’s--Scientology really is, um, a synthesis of a lot of other theories of thought, it’s not, um--I don’t know that there’s very much of it that was original thought. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but the founder of it, Hubbard, did was to make it--um, one of the worst things a Scientologist could do was to attribute any of these thoughts to anybody but him. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: So by the time you’re in Scientology, if you--if you weren’t already very, very well educated on all of this background, um, you think that he’s a genius. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: He’s brilliant, he’s come up with all of these incredible concepts and stuff where in fact it was actually synthesized from a whole lot of other things. KURT LODER: Uh-hum. Did you--was he still alive when you joined the group? STACY BROOKS: Yeah. KURT LODER: Did you ever get to encounter him? STACY BROOKS: No. No, no. KURT LODER: Was he a rarified personality at that moment? STACY BROOKS: Well, he was already in hiding by the time I had gotten into Scientology. He was--he was being pursued by the IRS and by--he had already been indicted in France and he was found guilty of fraud in absentia in France so he wasn’t able to come out in public because, um, of a lot of legal problems that were starting to pursue him. KURT LODER: Yeah. So [?????] [Stacy clears her throat] KURT LODER: This all made sense to you at the time or your lifestyle or anything-- [Stacy starts laughing] KURT LODER: You contin--you continued your ascent in the organization? STACY BROOKS: Yes, yeah. Um, a few months after I got in, um, I--there’s a lot of controversy about whether or not there’s a particular type of person who’s more, um, predisposed to being brought into something like this or not. I don’t have the answer to that question but I know that for myself, I have always been a person who kind of never did anything half way, I mean-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: If I was gonna do something I would really do it all the way and that’s what did with Scientology, too, unfortunately [Stacy and Kurt start laughing]. So that a few months after I got into it, I decided that I wanted to become a staff member in Scientology. And, um, not only did I want to become a staff member but I wanted to become a staff member in the inner circle of Scientology, which is called the Sea Organization. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, it’s a--it’s an unincorporated fraternal group of people who actually run Scientology. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and, uh--so I did, I joined Sciento--I joined the Sea Org, and-- KURT LODER: How difficult was that? Did you have to pass through many of their-- STACY BROOKS: Well, it’s funny that you ask, because, um, you know, I was used to real life, where you have to present a resume, you have to have credentials and, you know, you have to be educated for a particular field or whatever. Um, so I--when I made the decision that I wanted to join the Sea Organization, I assumed that it would be the same kind of process, and I was really nervous and I was really, um, afraid that they wouldn’t accept me and all this kind of stuff. So I went to a great deal of trouble to, um, put a resume together and, um, make myself sound as attractive as I possibly could, as you do when you’re trying to get a job. And, um, I sent this all the way to, um, Denmark, which was where I was originally planning on, um, becoming a staff member. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And within some miraculous amount of time, it seemed like the next day but it must have been a couple of days later, I, um, had an answer back saying, "Yes! You are accepted, we want you to come right away!" [starts laughing] KURT LODER: Wow! That was a good resume! STACY BROOKS: Well, I thought so, I thought, "Wow! This is great!", you know, this is--um, they must really have thought I was very well qualified. It wasn’t until later that I discovered, um, you don’t have to have any qualifications to join the Sea Org. Um, there are recruiters who go around and look for people, just on the street-- [Kurt Loder starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: For, for joining staff to help with whatever, you know, kinds of work that they need. But at the time I was just thrilled, I just thought, I thought, "Wow, I have really done it, this is great, I have really found my groove!" [Kurt Loder and Stacy Brooks both start laughing] STACY BROOKS: I was gonna be so happy. It was--it was kind of like, um,--it was almost as if--if you’re really a Trekkie-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: If you’re really into "Star Trek", and you--and I’ve gone to a couple of Trekkie conventions. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And these people would love nothing more than for the ship to land and, you know, for the recruiters to go down and-- [Kurt Loder and Stacy Brooks both start laughing] STACY BROOKS: For them to, you know, recruit for Starfleet Academy and for it to really be true. And Scientology really is kind of like that, really. I think it’s the best way for me to describe it. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: It’s a very science-fiction world. Um, it has a galactic confederacy, it has space opera-- [Kurt Loder starts chuckling] STACY BROOKS: It has lifetimes and lifetimes worth of, um, space travel that we’ve all been through and, um [clears her throat] it’s--it’s a very sort of, um, romantic, very heady kind of, um, view of the world that he created and, um, that Scientologists think is real. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And so I really kind of felt like I was, um, going to Starfleet Academy in a way. Um-- [Kurt Loder and Stacy Brooks both start laughing] KURT LODER: Did you have to wear a uniform? STACY BROOKS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Naval uniforms-- [Kurt Loder starts chuckling] STACY BROOKS: --in the Sea Organization. It was very paramilitary. It’s a paramilitary organization. Um, but that was really what I thought I was going to. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: I think that’s what a lot of people, um, get into their heads, that, you know, you finally found a true group. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, where their captain is always very reasonable [starts laughing]. And everybody always gets along. [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing]You know, it’s just like on TV. Um, which of course it never is and it certainly wasn’t in that group. But I think--I think that that level of idealism is what really, um, gets people in there and-- KURT LODER: Yeah, sure-- STACY BROOKS: --gets people to stay. I know that the reason that I, um--when I got out there, the very first day, it was very obvious to me that this was no ideal group. Um-- KURT LODER: Why? Why so? STACY BROOKS: The building that I was, um, to report to turned out to be, um, really close to a tenement. It was very, very run-down in Hollywood, in Hollywood at that time I think they started to, um, kind of rejuvenate it a little bit at this point, but at that time [clears her throat], this was in the mid-Seventies, it was really on its way down. KURT LODER: Huh. STACY BROOKS: And, um, I reported to this building which, um, which was kind of falling apart and very ramshackle and, um, kind of alarming to me. Have you seen that movie "Benjamin"--"Private Benjamin"? KURT LODER: Yes. STACY BROOKS: With Goldie Hawn? You know--[Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] I kind of had the idea that I was reporting to some really cool, space-shippish type of organization, you know, everything would be white and gleaming and beautiful and everybody would be, um, very intelligent and wonderful, and it didn’t fit that picture at all, you know, and the people were kind of, um [clears her throat] grubby and-- KURT LODER: Yeah--hmm. STACY BROOKS: This one man who was in charge of all of the new recruits was in a very, very bad mood and yelling at everybody and [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] really scary, and not at all what I had expected and for some reason took an instant dislike to me because I--well, actually, because you were supposed to call him "Sir". Um, you know, it was sort of like new navy recruits, you know. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: We were supposed to report to their lieutenant or something like that. Well, I didn’t know this, you know [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing]. And, um, so I called him by his first name when he asked me something and, and he just got furious at me, [Kurt starts chuckling], really took offense, and I thought, "Well, gosh! I’m sorry, I didn’t know!" [Stacy starts laughing] And, um, it was kind of, um, from the beginning, immediately, you know, there’s really something wrong here, they don’t understand what’s really supposed to be happening here, you know. [Kurt starts chuckling]I, I’m obviously not at the part of the organization that I’m meant to get to. So I sort of began a search at that point, um, for the part of the organization that I had thought was what I was gonna find. And, um, every--you know, I kept moving up the ranks. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um-- KURT LODER: You’re being paid well all this time? Are they paying you a living wage? STACY BROOKS: You get paid about $24 a week [Kurt starts laughing] and you’re--and you live--in the Sea Organization you live, you’re given room and board and you live in, um--there’s Big Blue--well, you’ve seen the Cedars of Lebanon Hospital in Hollywood. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: On Sunset Boulevard. KURT LODER: Uh-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and it is painted blue, light blue. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, we all lived in that building. Um-- KURT LODER: You weren’t out to sea very much. STACY BROOKS: Oh, no. By 1975 that was over. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Or 1976, I think, was when, um, the ship landed for good and those people moved to Clearwater, Florida, and, um-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: They’re all in Florida now. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: But, um, [short pause] KURT LODER: Okay, I’m ready when you are. STACY BROOKS: I was telling you why I went to the prison camp. KURT LODER: Where was this prison camp? Did it have a-- STACY BROOKS: In Los Angeles. They have them where the Sea Organization units are. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, there was one in Los Angeles, um, there was one--there is one down at Clearwater, Florida. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, there was one out at the secret Scientology International headquarters which was in Hemet, California, out in the desert. KURT LODER: Secret? Uh, why was it secret? STACY BROOKS: Well--why was it secret? Um, at that time, in the late ‘70s-early ‘80s it was being kept a secret because they were hoping Hubbard would be able to come there and live there. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And it had to be kept very secret because he was in hiding. KURT LODER: Yeah. Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, it has--I’m not really sure why they continue to keep it secret, but they, um, they promote it as a film studio [clears throat] where they make all the promotional films for Scientology, but really it’s where Miscavige and his, um, head people all live and it’s where Scientology is run from, internationally. Um, Miscavige runs it internationally. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, it’s a very dictatorial political system, um-- KURT LODER: I imagine. [Stacy starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: Um, and his word is law and everybody does what he says. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but I was very critical of him. I felt that he was, uh, um, very, um, dictatorial. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and-- KURT LODER: Where did he come from? Is he just a Scientologist who rose through the ranks? STACY BROOKS: He--well, actually, he kind of grew up in Scientology. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, he is from Philadelphia, his family is from Philadelphia. Um, he got--his parents were both in Scientology. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And he got in at a very early age, I think--I’m not really sure what year, what--how old he was when he got in, but I think by the time he was 8 or 9 or something, he was, um, um, very much a Scientologist and, um, he became one of Hubbard’s messengers. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, Hubbard’s messengers were his, um--I don’t know what an equivalent would be, but they were very young children who ran Scientology for him. Um, they became his eyes and ears. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, um, when I say young children, I don’t mean 8 or 9, but they were in their teens. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, or something like that. And Miscavige was one of those. He, um, was basically raised at Hubbard’s knee. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, he rose in the ranks as a messenger, and, um, um, I think he was very ambitious. Um, I think he saw that it would be possible for him to take over after Hubbard died. KURT LODER: Even though Hubbard had children. STACY BROOKS: Yeah, but Hubbard’s children--Hubbard was never much of a family man! [Stacy starts laughing] KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: To say the least! [Kurt starts chuckling] You know, his wife, uh, went to jail for, um, crimes which he knew about, ordered, and then he kind of threw her to the dogs and let her take the rap. KURT LODER: What crimes were they? STACY BROOKS: Well, um, uh, Scientology--Hubbard became very paranoid that there was a conspiracy against Scientology world-wide. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And he decided that, um, the, the--all the false reports about Scientology in various government files, um, needed to be, um, taken out of the files. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And so he sent out orders that this was to be done. And, um, some of these agencies were not very cooperative about this, such as the IRS. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, so some of the more, um, uh--there was--his wife ran a program which included, um, having people break into the IRS offices and steal documents. Um, and they got caught. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, about I think 11 people went to jail in 1980 for that. And, um, Miscavige took over right after that. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And his whole, um--kind of the crisis that he rode in on basically was that crisis. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and he took over control of all aspects of Scientology in 1981. KURT LODER: In the sense of does he own the organization? Is he the--as a piece of property, does he own-- STACY BROOKS: No. He has complete control. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Over every single Scientologist in the world. KURT LODER: Hmm. STACY BROOKS: If David Miscavige told somebody to do something, they have to do it or they risk being thrown out of Scientology. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, which, for a Scientologist, obviously, is-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --like, I guess, a Catholic risking being ex-communicated or, um, anybody else who believes very strongly in what they’re doing. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: You know, risking being denied access to that thing. KURT LODER: Yeah. Uh, what level did you rise to ultimately? Is there like an OT-43 or something or--[Stacy starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: Um, [clears throat] when we left, which was in 1989, I had--in my auditing, I had gotten to, um, I think maybe the second or third highest level of auditing that you can get to, that you could get to at that time. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. More--more levels have developed since then? STACY BROOKS: More levels have been released since then. [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] Um, but I was on OT--I should explain this. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: There are--there is a state called Clear, which people might have heard of. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Which is what Dianetics claim to be able to, um, help people to achieve. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: The state of Clear was originally, um, sort of supposed to be a state in which your mind, which was--the model was sort of a computer, um, and a computer can, a computer works perfectly unless it has some, you know, held-down, um, keys. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And so basically what auditing was all supposed to do was to get rid of all these held-down keys in your computer mind. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And then you would be able to return to your original state of having a perfect computer. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, that was the model that he used. Um, but after the state of Clear, um, he then developed further levels that you could reach-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --which costs, of course, more and more and more money, too, but, um, they’re called, um--[looking past the camera] excuse us, that’s a cat-- UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yeah, I heard him scratch his claws-- KURT LODER: That’s all right. [Stacy turns around and shoos cat away] STACY BROOKS: Sorry! [starts laughing] Um, should I keep going? KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, after Clear, there are other states that you can attain which are called Operating Thetan levels. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: A thetan being the name of the person themselves in Scientology. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, so-- KURT LODER: Like my name would be a thetan, is that what you mean? STACY BROOKS: Well, like, instead of saying that, um, that you’re a person or that you’re a being-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: --you say you’re a thetan. It’s just their word. They use--they have a whole different language, they don’t use regular words much. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: [starts laughing] For much of anything. [Kurt starts chuckling] Um, so, uh, Operating Thetan is, is--the basic idea, um, is sort of like, uh, Nietzche’s Superman. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, you are--you’re promised that you’re gonna be able to achieve incredibly super-human, um, abilities. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, you’ll be able to, um, move around at will without your body. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, you’ll be able to, um, have complete control over the entire physical universe. You’ll be able to do whatever you want to. KURT LODER: That is attractive! [starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: Well it is quite attractive! I don’t know anybody who has ever achieved the state, but it is very attractive! [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] And, um, part of--part of what happens in Scientology is that another level will be released that--and everybody will be--everybody who has by now kind of begun to wonder, "Wait a minute!" KURT LODER: [starts chuckling]When do I get to move things around in the universe?-- STACY BROOKS: "I’m not doing all these things that I was supposed to be able to do!" Well, another level gets released and they’re told, [Kurt starts chuckling]"Well, we didn’t want to tell you then, but really that was just preparation for this level which is where you’re really gonna be able to do these things!" So it keeps going. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: But-- KURT LODER: How much does this cost every time you have to keep going up one notch? STACY BROOKS: I don’t know what the prices are now. It’s very expensive. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, I know people who’ve spent two or three hundred thousand dollars, um, and then have become very disillusioned and, you know, complained about it. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but I never paid for ‘em because I was in the Sea Organization, so I’m not really familiar with the prices. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, anyway, I was about--I was on OT-5. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Operating Thetan 5. And, um, the highest level you could get to at that time was OT-7. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Now you can get to OT-8. And soon you’ll be able to get to OT-9, I guess, I don’t know. [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] KURT LODER: Inevitably, I suppose. STACY BROOKS: Yeah. KURT LODER: Is there, is there, are there also--there seem to be, I understand there are now space visitors involved in all this? STACY BROOKS: Oh, yeah. KURT LODER: Some areas. STACY BROOKS: Oh, yes, the whole thing! [Kurt starts laughing] It’s a whole--you know, the world, planet Earth is only one little mudball, as they call it, and really the people who are on planet Earth were all sort of rejects from the, from the Galactic Confederacy and we all just sort of got dumped here. Um, in a very long story which, if I talk to you about it on camera you would have to cut it out [Kurt starts chuckling] because it’s very confidential! [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] So I won’t do that! Um-- KURT LODER: Confidential in what way? You mean no one is allowed to speak about it? STACY BROOKS: Nobody can talk about it at all, and people--that’s the thing that Scientology sues people for more than anything. Um, they’re really trying to keep these upper levels confidential. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um-- KURT LODER: Why is that? Just because they’re so absurd? STACY BROOKS: They say that it’s very important to keep these levels confidential because if people are given access to this information before they have gone through the lower levels of auditing and therefore sort of gotten themselves in good enough shape to hear it-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: They’ll get pneumonia and they’ll die, um, and it’s very, very dangerous for people to hear this information. Um, the only thing about that is [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] that it’s been, um, published in a lot of newspaper articles, um, a lot of books, um, a lot, a lot, a lot of people on the Internet have seen this information and I haven’t heard of one person getting sick over it but I have heard of several people getting sued over it! [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] KURT LODER: Yeah, yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, my personal feeling about it is I think it’s much more a marketing problem. Um, they actually did sue at one point, um, and their defense--their, their argument was that these were trade secrets. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, the judge thought that there was some conflict between their calling these things trade secrets and their calling themselves a religion-- KURT LODER: A religion--[Kurt and Stacy start laughing] STACY BROOKS: And she said, "You can’t do both! You guys, you want to be a, a business with trade secrets or do you want to be a religion?". You know, and they kind of backed off from the issue legally at that point. KURT LODER: Uh-huh. STACY BROOKS: But, um, the way they’re dealing with it now is with the copyright infringement situation. KURT LODER: Hmm. STACY BROOKS: A couple of people who, um, posted some of those materials on the Internet, um, got raided. KURT LODER: Wow! STACY BROOKS: One, one guy named Dennis Erlich, who is down in southern California, um, posted some of this material--he’s a former Scientologist. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, one morning, some Scientolog--some very high-level Scientologists and their attorney arrived at his house with some policemen. KURT LODER: Wow! STACY BROOKS: And they had gotten a, um, a search warrant or a--whatever you call it, approval from a judge for a raid. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And they went through and they, um, took all of his materials, they took stuff off of his computer--I think they took his hard drive, I don’t know what they took, but-- KURT LODER: Wow! STACY BROOKS: They’re pretty serious about this! KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And they’re suing him and they’re suing, um, the--you know how on the Internet there’s like local servers? KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: That allow you into it and stuff? KURT LODER: Sure. STACY BROOKS: They’re suing the local server who let him on. KURT LODER: Wow! STACY BROOKS: They’re really--they’re really trying to-- KURT LODER: Just because he was telling their little story? And-- STACY BROOKS: Well, they say that it’s because he was, um, posting copyrighted materials on the Internet. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, the judge, um, refused to give ‘em a temporary restraining order. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and said that--I think, I’m not really sure about the legal, but--there is a thing called Fair Use which-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: --allows people to post, you know, certain amounts of copyrighted materials or whatever. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: So, you know, now it’s getting down to a whole legal thing about it. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: That. But the bottom line on it is that, um, they stand to lose an enormous amount of money if these, um, if these materials are released for the broad public. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, then why does anybody have to pay anything to see them? KURT LODER: Yeah, sure. STACY BROOKS: So-- KURT LODER: Now, you met you husband in Scientology? Or-- STACY BROOKS: Yeah. KURT LODER: Yeah. So you were both there. Did you both come to the--how did you come to the decision to leave? STACY BROOKS: Well, I started to become very disillusioned, um, um, probably eight or nine years before we actually left. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, but, um--and he began to get disillusioned, too. But, um, there were a couple of factors involved in it. Number one, we couldn’t talk to each other about it because you weren’t allowed to talk about any critical feelings that you’re having. Um, if you talk about the possibility of leaving, um, with anybody other than the authorized person in the organization--like, you can’t talk about things like that with your husband or whatever. Now you can say, "Well, yes you can, just go out to the park where nobody’s listening to you!" KURT LODER: Yeah STACY BROOKS: "And talk!" [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing]I know, I know! I realize that now! But at the time [Kurt starts chuckling] my state of mind was such that, um, I was really locked into their, uh, their whole way of thinking. I, I really was doing the self-policing that they want people to do. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: So was my husband. Um, so there was that aspect of it, but it was also, um--you know, as I said earlier, um, I kept thinking that it could get better, that I could change it, that these things that were wrong were, um, not the way it was supposed to be, um, that if it could only be the way it was really supposed to be, everything would be great. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, what finally happened was, um, my husband was beaten up by one of the senior executives-- KURT LODER: Wow! STACY BROOKS: --for refusing to do something that he wanted him to do. Um, and that was kind of the last straw for him. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: He kind of finally realized there was no way that--"I mean, I have to get out of here!" [Stacy starts laughing] KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know. And, um, by that point I had sort of been, um, waiting for him to make a decision because I didn’t want to leave without him obviously or I would never see him again. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and I don’t know even now if that would have been true or not, you know. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: But, um, we did, we left together in 1989. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: We didn’t even talk about it with each other for almost two years. We were so scared, we were so afraid of what was gonna happen to us. Um-- KURT LODER: Why were you scared? STACY BROOKS: Because you, um--it’s kind of like, um, if somebody leaves the Mormons or-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: --leaves some other group and you’ve been told these horrible things will happen to you [starts laughing], you know. Um, and not only that, but we had both been in a part of Scientology that harassed [Kurt starts chuckling] critics, you know, that intimidated people, um, and we knew that, uh, because of what both of us knew about the organization, um, uh, we felt we were in danger. KURT LODER: Uh-huh. What is that part of Scientology that--does it have a name? STACY BROOKS: It used to be called the Guardian’s Office. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And now it’s called the Office of Special Affairs. Um-- KURT LODER: What do they do to their critics essentially? STACY BROOKS: Well, I can tell you some of the things that they’ve done to us! [starts laughing] KURT LODER: What have they done to you? STACY BROOKS: Um, they have a private investigator who had--has done things to us which I know he’s done to a number of other people. Um, he came up here to Seattle, um, and he started knocking on the doors of our neighbors and our friends and, um, spreading a lot of slander about, particularly about me and also Vaughn. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and, um, called my parents, called my sister, um, uh, contacted various people in other parts of the country, um, doing what they call a noisy investigation--it’s in, it’s all according to Hubbard’s directives about what you do with people who are causing trouble for Scientology. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, you want to, um, scare them into shutting up, basically. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: They’re trying to silence you by intimidation, of course. Um, but that didn’t work so they, um, he started coming around and, um, trying to convince people that Vaughn was a neo-Nazi. Um, the neo-Nazi aspect of it was because Vaughn was testifying in Germany. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And being a neo-Nazi in Germany, um, is illegal [starts chuckling]-- KURT LODER: A bad thing-- STACY BROOKS: So they were trying to, um, get the German government to refuse to deal with him-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: --because of that. But he’s not a neo-Nazi, so [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] that didn’t go very far! Um, and, um, you know, spreading stories about my sex life, about Vaughn’s sex life, you know, just all kinds of things calculated to, um, embarrass us and, um, upset us. You know, he called my mother, and-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --you know, told her all kinds of things about me, and fortunately my mother called me and said, "This is a terrible person, he must be working for Scientology!" [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] So it didn’t really have the effect that they were trying to create, so, um, then they, um, wrote a very long, you know, 14- or 15-page, um, booklet about us. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. [starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: I mean, I tell you, it was really pretty sleazy. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, again it was sent out to a lot of people all over the country. Um, it had pornography in it, it was really, really sleazy. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And again it was calculated to embarrass us and just, you know, sort of mortify us. [starts laughing] KURT LODER: Uh-hmm. STACY BROOKS: That something like this is even happening to us! It was interesting, though, this thing was also passed around to our neighbors and stuff. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, we were a little concerned at first when we saw this thing because it was really bad! [starts laughing] KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And if people believed it about us it was gonna be kind of embarrassing. But what we discovered was that, um, Scientology is getting a reputation for such, um, kind of, um--I don’t know what the word is for it--I guess sleazy, or-- KURT LODER: Sleazy authoritarianism? [starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: Yeah! Kind of, um, bullying like that, you know, um, as if there is no such thing as free speech in this country. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, or as if there is, um, if somebody doesn’t have the right to be critical of something. Um, they certainly have the right to be critical of whatever they want to be, but-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: --apparently it’s a very one-sided thing. Um, but fortunately we’ve been--we’ve had a lot of support. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, our friends, our family, our neighbors have been nothing but terribly supportive and understanding and--and really, um, all of these things that Scientology has been doing to us, have, um, have made people, um, sort of very proud of us for being able to withstand it [Kurt starts laughing] more than anything else, you know! Um, it doesn’t turn out to have really had a very, um, you know, an effect that they really wanted it to have. KURT LODER: No. STACY BROOKS: Um-- KURT LODER: You said they had, that--your husband went to testify in Germany and--what is their status in Germany now? STACY BROOKS: In, um, the state of Hamburg, they’ve been, um, ruled as a business. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And they have to, um, like, they have to register now as a business. And they are--they’ve been found not to be a religion. KURT LODER: Hmm. STACY BROOKS: Which is a fairly serious-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --thing because, um--well, like in this country, you know, a religion, um, there’s freedom of religion and, um, religions--groups that are, that have the status of a religion are able to do a lot of things that-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, everybody else in the country isn’t supposed to do! [starts laughing} KURT LODER: Right. STACY BROOKS: You know, um-- KURT LODER: How do you think they got their tax-exempt status? [Stacy shakes her head]I mean, it’s just--you think there was something questionable about that? STACY BROOKS: Well, yeah, I do. Um, I’m really not--I don’t know they did that. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, I know that the IRS was, um, investigated pretty seriously, um, for a number of years. Um, I also, um--there were a couple of people who were, um, willing to testify for the IRS who were, um, who settled with Scientology and were paid money by Scientology to, um, sort of make a 180-degree turnaround about things that they had testified about Scientology and stuff like that-- KURT LODER: Yeah. But what is the group’s status elsewhere? I think you had mentioned in France they’re persona non grata also? STACY BROOKS: Well, apparently in, um, last summer, um, there were some, um, indictments brought down in France. I’m not really sure about the details of it. KURT LODER: All right. STACY BROOKS: Um, but there have been indictments brought down in Spain. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: You know, the president of, um, Church of Scientology, International, Heber Jentzsch, is under indictment in Spain. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: I think extradition procedures are being looked into at this point. Um, in Great Britain, in England, um, there has been a lot of really bad publicity, um, there’s been publicity in England about some of their, um, more dangerous practices, um, one of which has to do with, um, their treatment of people who are driven into psychotic episodes by their auditing. They’re not given medical--proper medical care. Um, they’re kept isolated from other people, they’re kept under guard. Um-- KURT LODER: Hmm. STACY BROOKS: No one is allowed to talk to them, and they’re, they’re basically just kept away from, um, society until they-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --come out of it, if they do-- KURT LODER: Has there ever been any charges like physical force being used against people? STACY BROOKS: Well, um, it’s kind of a shadowy, um, subject for Scientology. Um, there was one court case I know in, um, Los Angeles that we worked on, um, where, um, quite a bit of, um, research was done about suicides that have happened, um, you know, Scientologists who have committed suicide, Scientologists who have been murdered, um, Scientologists who have died under very questionable circumstances-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but nobody’s every been brought to trial for that kind of-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --thing, um, and it’s certainly an area that, um, that they would protest vehemently-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --being accused of. KURT LODER: They have a Celebrity Centre. You know, there’s obviously a definite large interest in celebrities. How did this-- [Stacy starts laughing] do they, do they focus on this specifically? Is this important to them? STACY BROOKS: Oh, yeah. Hubbard wrote quite a few, um, directives, um, telling Scientologists specifically to go after celebrities, um, [clears her throat] because of their PR value. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, they’re treated with absolute kid gloves, they’re given the red carpet treatment. Um, they have no idea about what the group is really like that they’re involved with, um, because their celebrity value is huge-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, there have been articles where, um, Tom Cruise is praising Scientology, um, John Travolta is praising Scientology. Um, and this is worth gold. KURT LODER: Sure. STACY BROOKS: Obviously, for Scientology. So, um, they take very good care of these people. Um, um, I know there was some--there was a, some press generated as a result of the declaration that somebody, a former Scientologist wrote about the fact that, um, some of the, um, people that were in those prison camps that I told you about-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: --did a lot of the work, um, building an apartment for Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, um, creating a whole--some sort of an athletic field for them, um, tennis courts, um, you know, work-out room, all this kind of stuff. And this was all done with, um, slave labor basically, people who are being paid $5 a week and being kept up around the clock, and-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You know, it was being paid for with, um, church money which is not supposed to be used for those reasons and-- KURT LODER: Sure-- STACY BROOKS: --you know, all this kind of stuff came out in a lot of articles. And, um, Tom Cruise’s reaction was just absolute fury, and just absolute refusal to believe that such a thing was possible. KURT LODER: Hmm. STACY BROOKS: And yet I know it’s possible, I was out there! [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] I mean, it’s what happens. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: But, um, David Miscavige has become Tom Cruise’s best friend. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, Cruise said so--well, he didn’t say he was his best friend, but he said, um, in an article--I can’t remember what magazine it was in--but a recent interview with Cruise, he said that, um, you know, Miscavige is a great guy and-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: --this and that. And, um, you know, Miscavige has really personally taken on that, um, very enjoyable job, you know-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --of hob-nobbing with the celebrities and, um, making sure that they’re treated with the absolute best and-- KURT LODER: What do you think these people are-- UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I’m gonna have to ask you to stop for a moment, we’re out of tape here-- KURT LODER: Okay. [pause] KURT LODER: We’re well-modulated. STACY BROOKS: Okay-- KURT LODER: You know, things like that. Okay-- STACY BROOKS: Where was I? KURT LODER: Okay, so you were, you were being paid $24 a week and-- STACY BROOKS: Oh, yeah. [clears her throat] And, um, and, uh, there’s a big cafeteria where everybody eats, and, um, when I first got in, I wasn’t living in that big blue building, but soon thereafter, um, we moved there. And, um, each time I, um, got into a part of the organization I discovered that, um, you know, I had a--I had a real ideal in my mind-- KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: --of what I was looking for and what was supposed to be there, um, that I--that really comes from their own promotion, you know. It really comes from, um, the public relations, um, that Scientology, um, puts out for people. Um-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- [cut in the tape] [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] KURT LODER: A quick walk, walk down the street. STACY BROOKS: That’s all it takes, yeah. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: It doesn’t take much. KURT LODER: Is it rolling? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yep, he’s clear, are you okay now? KURT LODER: Okay. All right, so you continue rising in this structure. What’s--where you, was there more philosophy coming your way? I mean, what, what do you get told all this time? STACY BROOKS: Oh, yeah, I was getting, I was, um, getting more and more training as I went up and I was getting more auditing. Um, auditing is the, um, particular type of--I think you would call it a particular type of psychotherapy that’s delivered in Scientology. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, it’s not called a psychotherapy any more. Um, it was originally. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, in 1950 when it first came out. Um, Hubbard was, uh, hoping that Dianetics, which was the forerunner of Scientology, would become a new popular psychotherapy. But unfortunately, um, what happened was, um, the psychiatric and the psychological community, the scientific community, um, became very critical of his methods because they felt that they were very unscientific. Um, he wasn’t able to provide any scientific evidence for the claims that he was making. He was making some pretty wild claims. KURT LODER: What was he claiming? STACY BROOKS: He was claiming, um, to be able to cure a lot of different illnesses. Um, he was claiming basically to be able to resolve anything with Dianetics. It was, um, kind of--I think it was kind of the, um, the excitement of the moment, because this book came out, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health", and it was a bestseller. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And he was just astonished at its popularity, I think, and, um, it kind of went to his head, I think, a little bit, and he started to feel like, um, he could do anything. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, it--he started to get in trouble for practicing medicine without a license. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Some people, um, a couple of years later were arrested for practicing medicine without a license, and then the Food and Drug Administration raided a couple of the organizations, um, in Washington. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, seized the--the machine that’s used in auditing, which is called an e-meter. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: An electro--an electrometer. Um, and they seized it because it was being used for medical purposes. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: So it was only at that point that it was turned into a church. It was--he made it pretty clear at that time, although, um, this is kind of buried in the annals of history at this point, but he made it pretty clear at that time that, um, he was turning it into a religion because the, um, authorities were after him for practicing medicine without a license, um-- KURT LODER: It’s all right to do that if you’re a religion? [starts laughing] STACY BROOKS: And it’s not medicine any more if it’s a religion. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, the e-meter was gonna become a religious artifact. [Kurt starts laughing] Um, he announced this. "The e-meter is here--from now on, it is a religious artifact, um, we are a religion." But he also made it very clear, um, that "this is not gonna change anything about what you’re doing, it’s purely a matter for the accountants and the solicitors." That’s a quote. [Kurt starts laughing]So, um, he was nothing if not, um, quite brash [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] about his methods, but, um, uh, I learned more and more about the, um, philosophy and I trained more and more and I became an auditor and I audited people myself and I received auditing and, um--you know-- KURT LODER: Did it help you or did you feel that this was helping your life? I mean, did you get credentials-- STACY BROOKS: No, but of course--my life? What life? [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] I mean, I had already gotten rid of my life. I had put myself into a very, very, um, self-contained environment. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, much more contained than somebody who goes into a monastery or something because part of the--part of what Scientology is all about is a very self-policing mechanism. Um, uh, you really begin to lose your powers of critical thought because, um, in Scientology, if you have any critical thoughts about Scientology, particularly, and about L. Ron Hubbard, particularly, or management, um, it--it means without any question that you have done something wrong-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: --for which you are now trying to justify yourself by saying that the other people have done something or that--basically, this is why you’re being critical. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: So you quickly learn to police your own thoughts. Um, particularly because when you get auditing, you’re holding on to two soup cans. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And these two soup cans are attached to this thing called the e-meter. And the, the person who is auditing you is watching, um, this little dial on the e-meter-- KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: For signs of, um--that there is, that you’re thinking about certain things. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And-- KURT LODER: It only shows that there’s only, what, perspiration on your hand or something, doesn’t it? I mean-- STACY BROOKS: Well, yeah--you know, frankly, I don’t really know what it shows, but I’ll tell you what it doesn’t show; it does not show what I’m thinking [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing] and it never did, and, um, uh, it--but when you are in Scientology and you believe that it does, um, you become very concerned to control your thoughts, because if you have a wrong thought and you’re holding onto those cans, you can get in a lot of trouble. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, people go to, um, prison camps for things that they think of while holding onto those soup cans [starts laughing] so, um, it becomes a very serious matter. So you’re-- KURT LODER: Do they have prison camps? I mean-- STACY BROOKS: Yeah. It’s called the Rehabilitation Project Force. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: You’re--it’s, you’re being rehabilitated. KURT LODER: What do they do to you there? STACY BROOKS: You’re under 24-hour guard. Um, you’re not allowed to speak to anybody else outside of the prison. Um, you have to run everywhere, you’re never allowed to walk. Um, you work at some kind of hard physical labor for anywhere from 12 to 18 hours a day, depending on what kind of projects are, um, happening at the time. Um, and you stay there until you no longer have any critical thoughts about Scientology or management or L. Ron Hubbard. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And I went. Um, my husband went, um, and I went because I was very critical of the man who took over Scientology after Hubbard died, whose name is David Miscavige. KURT LODER: Yeah. Someone is coming in the door there [Stacy turns around] UNIDENTIFIED MAN: _____ is gonna have to change tape quickly. KURT LODER: Yeah? UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I think we’re-- [somebody walks by behind where Stacy is sitting] KURT LODER: Right behind your chair, there she goes. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sorry. STACY BROOKS: What? [turns around] KURT LODER: All right. STACY BROOKS: Oh! [starts laughing] You sure you don’t want anything to drink or anything? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No, I’m okay, thank you. STACY BROOKS: Okay. KURT LODER: No. STACY BROOKS: Maggie. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Okay, we’d better get rolling-- KURT LODER: Usual. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yeah, I guess it’s rolling. KURT LODER: You’re rolling? UNIDENTIFIED MAN Yeah. KURT LODER: Okay. When you have people like Travolta and these celebrities and I guess even regular people who are Scientologists, say, they must feel they’re getting something out of this. What do you think it is they’re getting?-- STACY BROOKS: Oh, yeah. Um, well I think Scientology is, is, um, a form of psychotherapy just as any other psychotherapy, it has followers. Um, there are people who swear by Freudian analysis or people who swear by transactional analysis. Um, there are Jungians, um, there are lots and lots of different schools of, um, therapy. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, there are a lot of New Age therapies, you know, people go channeling, people-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --you know, meditate. People do all kinds of things to, um, to try and--I don’t know what, get their head on straight or whatever. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and I think Scientology is another form of psychotherapy-- KURT LODER: Although one that was started by a-- STACY BROOKS: --up to a point. KURT LODER: --second-rate science fiction writer. I think that’s sort of odd-- STACY BROOKS: Yeah. Um, but there are a lot of kooky things-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --that people are doing these days and they’re perfectly within their rights to do them. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but I think it would be wise for, um, Scientology to, to be, um, recognized as a form of therapy such that it would be, um, brought under the same rules and regulations as any other therapists are. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, but I think people, um, get things out of Scientology the same way as they get things out of, um, any situation where somebody is listening to you talk about yourself for hours and hours and hours at a time! [Kurt and Stacy start laughing] You know, something has to happen! Um, uh, I think that’s about as innocuous as I can tell you-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: Um, the other side of it is that because it has no oversight and because, um, Scientology frowns on, um, medical intervention and because Scientology considers psychiatry to be, um, the source of all evil on the planet, -- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --um, Scientologists tend to be, um, denied access to a lot of, um, medical help that most people have access to. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And I think that that can lead to, um, some pretty dangerous situations and I think it has. And I also think that, um, a lot of people are, um, are Scientology practitioners with very, very little training. Um, um, they get their own ideas about how it should be done. Um, there’s nobody, uh, in the government, there’s nobody in any kind of, um, regulatory situation to oversee what they’re doing. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And, um, you know, I think people can get themselves into a lot of trouble because of that. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: But on the other hand, um, I think there are also people that, um, feel they’ve gotten a lot out of it, and they will, um, defend it to the death. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, I know even people who are in Scientology who hear me say some things that I, um, talk about sometimes, don’t believe what I’m saying. Um, they’ve never had that experience. They can’t imagine that such things would go on in Scientology. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, their image of Scientology is the image that is presented publicly. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, that it is a, um, self-help, um, philosophy and, um, that it’s as good as you make it. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And they feel that anybody who criticizes it the way I do, um, has done something so terrible, that I’m so afraid that people might find out about it, that I’m trying to, um, destroy Scientology because Scientology, um, has the means to find out what I’ve done. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, [starts laughing] that may sound a little convoluted but it’s true! [Kurt and Stacy both laugh] KURT LODER: There’s also the fact that it Hoovers money out of people’s wallets, obviously, I mean, at an impressive rate. STACY BROOKS: It’s an enormous amount of money that people spend for this thing. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, and-- KURT LODER: Do you think this is a cult? Do you look at it as a cult? STACY BROOKS: Well, um, I would call it a cult, and when I say that, what I mean is, um, that it fits the criteria of a thought control or mind control group, um, that, um, Robert J. Lifton has talked about in his books, Margaret Singer, um--I don’t know if you’ve heard of her, but she-- KURT LODER: The Cult Awareness Network. STACY BROOKS: Yeah, she’s a professor, um, at UC Berkeley. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: And, um, she’s written--she’s just written a book that’s just been published, um, about this whole, um, question of, "What is a cult? What do cults do? What do you do about cults?", you know, and it’s a pretty definitive work. Um, I think any group that, um, takes over the boundaries of your own life, that takes over, um, your thoughts that causes you to think in a very restricted, very authoritarian, um, way, that does not allow you, um, to think about things outside of the boundaries of its rules, that requires that you act in a certain way, think in a certain way, um, and metes out serious punishment if you don’t, um, whether it be psychological or physical, um, I think you could safely call that kind of a group a cult. KURT LODER: How do you--how do you look back on your own, I mean, more than a decade with it? STACY BROOKS: Um, well I was in it for 15 years. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: And I, um, I’m beginning to understand what motivated me, how I ended up getting myself into that kind of a situation. KURT LODER: Yeah. STACY BROOKS: Um, um, I’m beginning to, um, feel that I can take that experience and make it something valuable for myself by educating other people. KURT LODER: Um-hmm. STACY BROOKS: Um, and by really--the education that it gave me about how susceptible people really are. Um, I mean, if anybody would have ever told me that I was susceptible to that kind of, um, mind control, um, to that kind of--to getting myself involved in such a totalitarian, really kind of fascist political situation [starts laughing] I would have been appalled. I would have thought that they were completely out of their minds. And, um, and I think it’s given me, um, a level of humility, you know, about [Kurt and Stacy both start laughing]--about people and what they really are capable of-- KURT LODER: Right-- STACY BROOKS: --and, um, um, you know, there are a lot of abusive situations that people keep themselves in for various reasons-- KURT LODER: Yeah-- STACY BROOKS: --it’s not--you know, people say, "Well how could |